Ever wondered why some photos land perfectly on a website and others just don’t work, no matter how good the shot is? A brand and web designer joins the show to reveal exactly what she wishes photographers understood before they ever pick up the camera — from the details nobody tells you about to the compositional choices that make or break a client’s site. If you supply images that end up on someone’s homepage, this one could change how you shoot.
Planning Your Website is the practical companion to this one, covering what to sort out before you brief a designer.
00:02.36
Marcus
Well hello everybody it’s Marcus here and welcome to another episode of the Commercial Photographer Podcast. Well you’ll be glad to hear this week we’ve got a guest. I’ve got on Vicky Gray. Vicky is from Blue Mango Creative, a website designer. So Vicky how you doing?
00:20.74
Vicki
Oh hi Marcus, yeah I’m good thank you, thank you for having me here.
00:23.99
Marcus
Well, it’s a pleasure to have you on the show. And I know um we’ve been connected on the old LinkedIn for a little while now, and we yeah both comment on each other’s posts. So i know the kind of work you do.
00:35.26
Marcus
um Tell me about what you do, though, for just for our listeners. What kind of things do you do?
00:40.89
Vicki
Well, um actually, i set up my business 26 years ago straight from university as a a graphic designer, so print designer and logo designer.
00:44.70
Marcus
Yeah. Yeah.
00:49.29
Vicki
And um I’ve had to evolve my business over time and over the years. And so now I’m a a Squarespace website designer specialising in thoughtful branding, actually.
00:59.22
Vicki
Thank
00:59.58
Marcus
Love it. I love it. And I use Squarespace myself as well. I know it’s a great, that it’s a fairly it’s fairly easy to get something up there, but there’s quite a lot under the hood that you can do with it these days, isn’t there?
01:12.95
Vicki
Yeah, yeah, there is. I mean, I suppose the background is, i my background is WordPress in terms of working with developers. And there’s various reasons why I moved over to the Squarespace squarespace platform.
01:19.64
Marcus
Right.
01:24.34
Vicki
That’s a mouthful. But for me, it’s about having that thoughtful branding. So really going through that process of What is the character of the business? What are what are my clients’ um competitors?
01:37.80
Vicki
um And who are there but who are their audience? To really have a website that is branded and truly reflects them at a much deeper level, but also attracts their ideal ideal client.
01:48.33
Vicki
And then the website has got to work really, really well for the user visiting too.
01:48.84
Marcus
Gotcha.
01:54.33
Marcus
Do you work with any particular type of businesses, Vicky? Do you have a niche or anything?
01:58.95
Vicki
I love variety. i love variety to my work.
02:00.60
Marcus
I see.
02:01.85
Vicki
You know, it could be one day i’m doing a Lego design, another a day i’m doing branding, another day I’m creating a website. And and it’s the same with the businesses that I work with. um It’s across sectors, really.
02:12.59
Vicki
So yeah i work with pubs and hotels. I work with a lot of coaches and consultants.
02:14.96
Marcus
Mm-hmm.
02:17.69
Vicki
um I have worked with photographers. um So a real spectrum of I just love my business and I love the work and I love the variety that it brings.
02:19.35
Marcus
and Yeah. Yeah. What about your bass, Vicky?
02:29.04
Vicki
I’m based in the Cotswolds, in the North Cotswolds, in a in a little town called Northleach.
02:30.52
Marcus
Oh, lovely. Very nice.
02:34.40
Vicki
Now, some of you might know Northleach because um the series This Country was filmed here.
02:40.58
Marcus
Oh, right. Okay. I didn’t know that. Okay. Well, I know that area well. I play in a wedding band. So we’re often ah doing quite a lot. There’s quite a lot of wedding venues around around that way.
02:48.26
Vicki
are.
02:49.87
Marcus
So yeah.
02:49.88
Vicki
yes there are
02:51.10
Marcus
Yeah. So you’re not too far from me. um So no particular niche, but what surprised me what you were saying there is that you do do you are real hands-on when you work with your clients.
03:02.22
Marcus
that you’re doing say you’re doing the branding, you’re doing logo design as well as the website. Yeah.
03:07.87
Vicki
That’s right, so quite often um people come to me and they just want a website and then I delve down deeper and I say, okay, what is it you don’t like about your current website?
03:13.54
Marcus
Mm-hmm.
03:18.79
Vicki
And quite often they’ll say, well, the colours and the fonts don’t reflect who we are anymore, the images are outdated, not even sure I like on the logo design anymore. So then I take them on that whole brand journey.
03:30.51
Vicki
um Yeah, and it’s it’s really about delving down deeper. I use an online app that i was created for my developer and I, um and I use branding cards to really map out and reflect the character of their business.
03:44.43
Vicki
And it’s quite unique. No other designer uses it.
03:46.24
Marcus
Mmm.
03:46.90
Vicki
It’s mainly the system is really for coaches and consultants. So when I’ve got all of that insight and information, I put it all together in a brand mood board. And that brand mood board covers font psychology, color psychology, and metaphorical imagery.
04:02.66
Vicki
So that my clients really, yeah.
04:03.80
Marcus
Oh, wow. Wow.
04:07.42
Vicki
And so it
04:07.56
Marcus
Okay, we’ll unpack that in a minute.
04:09.40
Vicki
Yeah, we will. um So that my clients really understand what a brand feels like. And in the past, when I sold logo design and and branding, people were like, well, branding is just a logo, surely. It’s no, it’s more than that. It’s about feelings and emotions. And how do you want your clients to feel when they come and visit your website? So this branding board process is a really good starting point to really get that feeling and the emotion coming through.
04:37.59
Vicki
before designing a logo and before designing a website.
04:41.34
Marcus
Gotcha, yes. I mean, it’s um I still think in in in the UK, we’re still catching up a little bit with the States as far as what people’s awareness or what branding is. I mean, you mentioned the logo thing, and that’s quite a classic thing, isn’t it? People think it’s a logo.
04:57.21
Vicki
Yeah, it’s more than that. it’s um It’s logo, it’s tone of voice, it’s how your copy is written, it’s how your images are portrayed on a website.
05:03.83
Marcus
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
05:07.29
Vicki
It’s the colours that are used, it’s the fonts that are used, and it’s it’s everything to create, but I guess, feelings and emotions.
05:09.91
Marcus
Yeah.
05:15.93
Marcus
Yeah, and of course, ah you know, hopefully in and in the centre of that and the thing that is holding it all together is the, metaphor what do you call them, the metaphorical imagery.
05:25.24
Vicki
and Metaphorical imagery.
05:28.06
Marcus
Okay, so what does that mean then?
05:29.79
Vicki
So it’s interesting. So I probably have two types of clients. I’ve got my literal clients. So maybe, so take a catering company, for instance, and the photography that a you is used is great.
05:40.86
Vicki
So it might be close-ups of food and drink and, you know maybe a wedding venue. That’s very literal.
05:47.42
Marcus
Yeah.
05:47.96
Vicki
But when I’m working with, say, a consultant or a coach, I’m That is the perfect opportunity for me to get very metaphorical. So it’s turning the way they work into something usually in nature.
05:56.28
Marcus
and
06:00.82
Vicki
so I bring something in nature. So if it’s a coach that maybe takes their clients on a journey, what in nature is like a journey? So it might be a snail shell, you know, the little, um the twisting of that shell, or it might be a fern uncurling.
06:10.10
Marcus
Nice. Yeah.
06:16.56
Vicki
So that journey that they take their clients on. So it’s about bringing that metaphor into that branding board, which then they can use that kind of imagery on their on their websites if they want.
06:28.47
Marcus
That is so interesting. Yeah. So it’s like using it as a signifier imagery to to to get people thinking and talking about the business in a different way than just doing like ah a normal headshot might do or something like that.
06:42.49
Vicki
Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s really about… Getting really creative i love getting really creative.
06:47.54
Marcus
Creative. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
06:48.07
Vicki
Yeah. Mm
06:49.36
Marcus
So ah what we’re going be doing in this program is we’re going to be talking about What we can do as photographers to make your life easier and kind of things that you’re looking for from a photographer, from the kind of images you’re looking for that are going to land well on a website.
07:06.55
Vicki
hmm.
07:07.74
Marcus
And what triggered this is the fact that I know you’re really into photography. I remember a post you did a little while back talking about photography. And I thought ah it was such a passionate way you talked about I thought, let’s hear what your what your view is.
07:21.53
Vicki
So I love and I’ve always loved photography. Since the age of about 10, I had my first camera and I love those days when you could work with that film role.
07:26.62
Marcus
and
07:30.97
Vicki
um And for me, it was always about capturing a moment ever since the age of 10. And then um so actually we’ve got a long line of, I suppose, um hobbyists of photographers in the family.
07:41.69
Vicki
My mum’s a photographer, my daughter’s a photographer, and that’s what we do on our own time.
07:44.03
Marcus
Oh, wow. Okay.
07:45.97
Vicki
So for me growing up, we had a darkroom in our house.
07:46.97
Marcus
Yeah. Oh, fantastic.
07:49.88
Vicki
And oh, just there’s something so special about seeing that photo appear compared to now when you just hit these photos, they’re in the cloud and it’s just instant.
07:50.04
Marcus
Yeah, that’s good. Yeah.
08:01.68
Vicki
It it was very, very different back then. Yeah.
08:06.06
Marcus
Yeah, I couldn’t, I mean, it is very different. Times have changed and it’s hard not to be nostalgic, but you’re right. The magic of being in a darkroom and seeing image appear in front of your very own eyes is something, something, yeah.
08:18.61
Marcus
I would recommend that any photographer out there, if they haven’t done it, would give it go.
08:20.31
Vicki
Yeah.
08:22.73
Vicki
There’s something very exciting about seeing that image appear, rather than having so instant and digital nowadays.
08:28.82
Marcus
And well, and also there’s a lot of stress involved in it as well when you go to the darkroom and you’re waiting for that im image to appear and it doesn’t, and you just got a blank piece of paper to think, uh oh, ohh what’s gone wrong here?
08:36.33
Vicki
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that’s right.
08:39.26
Marcus
Yeah, certainly a learning process.
08:42.20
Vicki
So I did use um quite a lot of photography in my graphic design course. I went to University of the West of England in Bristol.
08:47.66
Marcus
Yeah.
08:49.85
Marcus
Yes.
08:49.92
Vicki
So I use photography as a medium that I use to to bring those ideas across. Do you know, once upon a time, i used to want to be a photographer as well.
09:00.73
Vicki
um But I think trying to put, for me, was always a struggle working with the settings. um Love being creative, but when it got into the technical side, I would always use aperture aperture priority and just struggled with manual and just playing around with it.
09:09.69
Marcus
one
09:12.34
Marcus
Yeah.
09:15.52
Vicki
And I i used to get so frustrated. So yeah, for me, it’s aperture priority. with graphic design and didn’t really go down the photographer route.
09:22.36
Marcus
Mate, nothing wrong with that. It’s all about ideas, Vicky. That’s the main thing. OK, so ah when a photographer hands you hands you images for a website, what are some the common mistakes that you see straight away?
09:38.50
Vicki
Well that’s interesting, because I work with photographers from the very beginning, i don’t really get the mistakes.
09:42.90
Marcus
Yeah.
09:45.60
Vicki
So that’s why I have to work really closely with a photographer from the very beginning, so we don’t get the mistakes at the end.
09:50.52
Marcus
Nice. Yeah, yeah.
09:52.41
Vicki
um So it’s making sure that the photographers are really understanding about the branding. So quite often I’ve been in meetings with photographers and the clients, so we get that message across very, very clearly.
10:06.49
Vicki
um Sometimes I go on photo shoots with photographers so I can help to art direct.
10:12.41
Marcus
Nice.
10:12.92
Vicki
um So it’s making sure that we don’t have those mistakes at the end.
10:15.80
Marcus
Yeah.
10:16.08
Vicki
And when um when I work with photographers, they always send me through the high res images and the low res images. So we’ve got both. um And I suppose one of the mistakes that might happen is when a photographer sends through those high res images, they don’t get, the file size doesn’t get reduced. And um if those images get uploaded onto a website and they’re huge files, i mean, it’s not worth having a huge file on a website. it will just slow the website down. It needs to be 72 dots per inch and without reducing quality as as small as possible, without reducing the quality, just so it speeds up the website.
10:54.78
Marcus
ah Just while we’re on that subject, oh sorry, to be
11:00.88
Marcus
sorry I just had a phone call coming in that. show So just while we’re on that subject, what kind of size file, so you say 72 dpi, what else do we need to think about?
11:11.51
Vicki
I would always see this is a struggle. It depends on the image. i would always try and to get it down to 400 kilobytes.
11:20.97
Marcus
400k, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.
11:21.46
Vicki
Yeah. Yeah.
11:22.80
Marcus
So what’s that, about 1,600, 2,000 across or something like that?
11:27.00
Vicki
yeah Yeah. It’s about 2000 DPI across. Yeah.
11:29.91
Marcus
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Well, that’s ah I mean, obviously, you know, back in the day, you was a massive concern, wasn’t it? would But wait, speeds, download speeds have gone up really fucked dar really fast these days, a lot faster. So I guess it’s still not too much, not too much of concern, but for you, it still is.
11:49.53
Vicki
Yeah, yeah, it is, because you still get some people on slow internet.
11:52.95
Marcus
Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
11:56.31
Vicki
And actually, with me being in North Leech and out in the country, it’s still a bit slower than everybody that lives in the city.
11:56.84
Marcus
How dare they? How dare they?
12:00.76
Marcus
Yeah.
12:04.79
Marcus
So, okay. So let’s go go back to this conversation you’re having him with your photographer. What kind of things would you be discussing with them? Would you be discussing the the set, the location, or would you just be giving a vibe?
12:16.03
Marcus
How would that work?
12:17.11
Vicki
We go down deep. um Yeah, we’ve got to have the location right.
12:18.87
Marcus
Okay.
12:20.95
Vicki
So again, it’s got to be in fitting with that that company. So again, if they’re a consultant, where do they work? Do they work from their office? Do they go and work in another venue?
12:31.51
Vicki
It’s got to really be authentic and real life.
12:34.20
Marcus
Yeah.
12:35.03
Vicki
um And then with me working with colour, from the branding perspective, it’s making sure it’s a little bit of colour popping going on. So, for instance, if their core colour is maybe, I don’t know, like a teal and an orange, is there any way we can be it bring a little bit of colour popping into a notebook or even a mug?
12:43.65
Marcus
Yeah.
12:53.24
Marcus
Yeah.
12:53.72
Vicki
Not necessarily their clothing, um but I think that really gives something and brings across those branding colours into the imagery.
13:02.26
Marcus
Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s that’s right. is it And it’s surprising when you get that shot on the website and it’s it you’s got that they say that that little pop of colour. It just works so well when you see it with the logo and the whole thing comes together.
13:14.19
Vicki
yeah
13:17.26
Marcus
But, i you know, I do think you can use it on clothing. I think if you’re doing a headshot in a studio, you know, you can have an accent of colour in there or even a block of colour, really.
13:23.45
Vicki
yeah yeah
13:25.02
Marcus
it depends It depends on the colour, but yeah.
13:26.58
Vicki
yes
13:27.07
Marcus
Yeah.
13:27.45
Vicki
I think it depends if it’s an individual. So if it’s a solopreneur, definitely, they can definitely wear their branding colours.
13:32.54
Marcus
Yeah.
13:33.49
Vicki
But I think if it’s a company, so I work with a lot of um companies with maybe sort of 40, 50 employees, you can’t have them wearing all the branding colours.
13:42.17
Marcus
Yeah, no.
13:43.14
Vicki
It gets a bit too much.
13:44.82
Marcus
That’s right. Exactly. That’s very true. What other conversations would you be having? Would you be, i mean, let’s just say the client is, i mean, they’re not, it always seems to be bright and airy, but this this to be different, I always think, why don’t should people shoot a bit darker or, you know, not,
14:01.27
Marcus
darker in exposure, but like in an in the evening or at nighttime or something like that, just to give it a different vibe.
14:07.67
Vicki
Again, I think it depends on the character of their business. You know, if their if their business comes across ah as that kind of vibe, then yeah, definitely.
14:10.71
Marcus
Yeah.
14:16.18
Marcus
Mm-hmm.
14:16.63
Vicki
That’s why branding work is so, so important to make sure the photography comes through and in the right way. um And again, going down to um whether you use a shallow depth of field or or not, I really like that blurriness that comes through between that foreground object and the distance, or even creating the distance that’s a little bit blurry, or if you want it crisp and clear.
14:27.51
Marcus
Yeah.
14:30.42
Marcus
Yes.
14:34.05
Marcus
Thank you.
14:38.17
Vicki
um so it all creates that effect and creates that um true branding element on on a website.
14:44.38
Marcus
Yeah, I get it. I mean, I can see why those short depth of fields, shallow depth fields would be appealing for a designer because you can put text on it very easily.
14:51.64
Vicki
Yeah. and
14:54.68
Marcus
ah But I think, this you know, possibly for a photographer, it can be seen as being a bit overdone, isn’t it? These very blurry backgrounds.
15:02.50
Vicki
Yeah.
15:03.22
Marcus
And, of course, back in the day again… your your background was part of the photograph, that was the environmental portrait, and it would all seem to work together.
15:14.42
Marcus
But of course, it took a lot more time because you had to really think about copy.
15:18.55
Vicki
yeah
15:19.26
Marcus
So let’s just talk, have a little chat about how copy words works with the image. What what kind of thing are you looking for? You’ve already mentioned the bouquet, the depth field.
15:30.09
Marcus
What else kind of things would you be looking for?
15:31.90
Vicki
Well, negative space is a good one.
15:33.50
Marcus
Yes.
15:34.22
Vicki
So make…
15:34.76
Marcus
We should call that positive space.
15:37.24
Vicki
but did you?
15:38.08
Marcus
I’m not quite sure why we call it negative. It’s such a bad connotation, isn’t it?
15:41.33
Vicki
It is actually. I’m going to change my wording to positive space.
15:44.46
Marcus
It’s positive space.
15:44.71
Vicki
Thank you for that. Yes.
15:45.85
Marcus
Right. Yeah.
15:46.25
Vicki
Being such positive people, why are we not using that word? um So, yeah, in fact, um I was working with a photographer on a shoot down in Bath recently, and I designed the website waiting for the content.
15:50.30
Marcus
do i
15:57.01
Vicki
And very specifically, I said on every bottom a photographer down recently. we needed to make sure there was that positive space, whether it was, um you know, a different coloured background, ground but a person to the left or the right, but making sure there was that negative space, positive space, sorry, for copy.
16:09.78
Marcus
Yeah.
16:14.60
Vicki
And it doesn’t have to be…
16:14.90
Marcus
That’s right. It will never catch on, don’t worry. You don’t have to. you I will never catch on.
16:17.86
Vicki
That’s fine.
16:19.46
Marcus
I know that.
16:21.82
Vicki
um But yeah, it’s really important for putting um text and it doesn’t have to be a lot.
16:24.54
Marcus
know
16:26.14
Vicki
I think the thing with copy, there is a tendency for people to put too much copy on a website. And how I design is i break up content with images to make sure you’ve got that flow all the way down the website.
16:40.44
Vicki
um with yeah with imagery and colour, breaking up content really. Headings are really important so that that person can view um the website as they as they scan all the way down.
16:47.49
Marcus
Mm-hmm.
16:53.49
Vicki
So less is more definitely in terms of copy and overlaying copy over images with positive space.
16:59.80
Marcus
Yeah, yeah. it’s ah I mean, i i i i still think there’s much more scope with text and images. When you look at like a really high-end fashion magazine or whatever, and you see some really beautiful way that, you know, large text or it’s been used in a very graphic way.
17:10.31
Vicki
um
17:19.48
Marcus
um And I’m not really seeing that. I’ve seen it on a few websites more recently, but I’ve not… What’s what’s your thoughts on that, the way that…
17:28.66
Vicki
I think we live in such a busy world nowadays and if that message doesn’t come through instantly, if it’s too busy, we’ve got a busy image with lots of busy copy, if the message doesn’t come through instantly, people are going to click off.
17:36.45
Marcus
Right.
17:44.87
Vicki
I see some websites with a very high bounce rate and that might be one of the reasons why, if it’s just too busy.
17:49.31
Marcus
Yeah,
17:51.05
Vicki
um If your message doesn’t come through quickly, people will bounce off. um You’ve got to be able to guide people down the page of your website really, really quickly. i think it takes, is it two seconds?
18:02.79
Vicki
might even mean a second now.
18:03.00
Marcus
yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:03.89
Vicki
Two seconds, I think it is, that if people come on the website, it’s not what they were looking for, off they go straight away.
18:05.08
Marcus
yeah
18:10.15
Vicki
it’s You’ve really got to create that impact, and mainly with images quite quickly, with um a simple design, simple and effective design, i would say.
18:19.70
Marcus
Yeah, and I guess with a website, it always is it’s a It’s an up and down scroll, whereas a photo book or magazine is going to be obviously a left to right, right to left scroll.
18:25.35
Vicki
Yeah.
18:30.29
Marcus
So that is the way we’re we’re interacting with it is different.
18:30.33
Vicki
Yeah.
18:34.97
Vicki
Yeah, it is. Yeah, I like, are you thinking about the flip books? The flip books that you’d have left to right?
18:39.61
Marcus
Well, I think it matches magazine layout as compared to a website layout.
18:41.66
Vicki
Yeah. Yeah.
18:47.15
Marcus
But even so, i think, you know, the classic double page spread we see in a magazine with just like a small block of text in the corner. I still think that, you know, if you’ve got some great imagery and it has to come from there first, I guess, there is possibly more scope for you as a designer to to lay that into a website.
19:07.77
Vicki
Yeah, yeah. I think, it’s interesting, I think if I opened a magazine nowadays, there’s so much more time spent looking at, I think it sounds a time, isn’t it
19:16.03
Marcus
I think, yeah, well that’s yeah you’re that’s what you’re saying. And that’s a very valid argument, isn’t it, Peter?
19:19.96
Vicki
Yeah.
19:21.78
Marcus
There’s less time.
19:23.30
Vicki
Mm.
19:23.94
Marcus
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That’s very true. Let’s just keep riffing, if we may, on the ah the aspect of images. So we’ve already talked about lots of space in an imagery and how yeah i’m building that into it.
19:31.80
Vicki
Mm.
19:37.26
Marcus
What about the vertical landscape ah landscape argument? it’s I mean, we are talking, it’s a difficult one, that one, isn’t it? Maybe a few words in that, Vic, if you may.
19:48.18
Vicki
It is really difficult that one because um obviously you’ve got site-wide header images, are obviously landscape is perfect, but I guess this might be one of the issues that might come through from a photographer is if guidance hasn’t been given and a portrait image comes through and the client thinks, oh, that’s fine.
20:07.45
Vicki
But actually by the time you scaled it out so it fits edge to edge, and it’s ah a photo of a person what that person is going to be huge in the header area.
20:17.37
Marcus
Yeah. Yeah.
20:18.30
Vicki
um Fine, if they’re in the distance a little bit more, and you can scale it up. But um you’ve really got to think about, yeah, how um people or things are gonna be photographed so that you fit, so it fits the way you want it to onto, into a website.
20:36.19
Vicki
And I think that’s where art direction is really important with a photographer at the very beginning.
20:38.84
Marcus
Yes. Yeah.
20:41.15
Vicki
So then you don’t get those issues at the end.
20:43.70
Marcus
Yeah, and I think it’s, you know, it’s common now to think that if you shoot an image, it’s got to be done in, but you know, certainly if it’s going to a hero image, it’s got to be done in landscape and it’s got to be done in portrait mode as well, really.
20:52.03
Vicki
Yeah.
20:55.03
Vicki
Yeah.
20:55.66
Marcus
So, yeah, but yeah I mean, what is the use?
20:55.80
Vicki
Yeah.
20:58.50
Marcus
I mean, is it still 50-50 mobile phones, um computer?
21:03.00
Vicki
Oh, I think it’s gone up. No, I think it’s gone up. um I think especially with the younger generation now.
21:08.31
Marcus
No.
21:08.64
Vicki
Yeah, I think it probably 60-40 actually and going up.
21:11.43
Marcus
It’s 60-40.
21:12.32
Vicki
Yeah, I do so
21:13.59
Marcus
Yeah, yeah. Then you add reels into that, etc. really are in the sort of portrait o preference really for the the the orientation of an image.
21:23.17
Vicki
Mobile. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, you’re right. for For photographers, I think it’s definitely shooting in landscape and portrait for every scenario.
21:33.24
Marcus
Yeah, indeed. um Okay, let’s talk about, we talked about how the photographer works with you um to create images for a client. What about the other way around? What do you, what do you, can you say about, what you notice about photographers’ websites, the way they are put together? Any sort tips you can pass on to us that you’ve noticed?
21:53.18
Vicki
Well, you know, I was thinking about, I suppose for all you listeners, there’s ah just a simple three minute audit that they could do actually. they could have They could have a look at their website and answer three questions.
22:03.47
Marcus
Uh-huh.
22:08.15
Vicki
So for instance, yeah, here we go.
22:08.50
Marcus
Oh, it go yeah.
22:10.31
Vicki
So I thought, can a stranger tell what you do in five seconds? So it’s really um important to make it obvious um who you help. So within five seconds, a visitor should know who you help, what you help them achieve, and why they should keep reading.
22:26.56
Vicki
So again, we’re looking at how the busy lives that people are having really hook them in from the beginning and why they should keep reading. And too many websites talk about the business instead of the customer.
22:40.32
Vicki
So that’s the first one.
22:40.89
Marcus
Yeah, that’s a good one.
22:42.33
Vicki
Yeah.
22:42.61
Marcus
Very true, very true.
22:44.42
Vicki
And then look at your website again and does this sound like me and the clients I want to attract? So check whether your website still reflects your business because businesses evolve and websites often don’t.
22:56.95
Vicki
So if your business has grown or changed direction or attracts a different client, your website should reflect that.
23:03.86
Marcus
Yeah, that’s so that’s very, very true. In fact, you know just thinking of myself there, I’m going to set aside August to have a little flip around on my website because I’m developing my education side more.
23:15.12
Vicki
Yeah.
23:15.56
Marcus
I’m also working more with commercial brands as opposed to personal brands. And yeah, my website website doesn’t reflect that. So i’m I’ve set aside the month of August to sort of have a go at that really when things are a bit quieter.
23:28.06
Marcus
So yeah, good advice.
23:28.44
Vicki
And it’s a good time to do it. Yeah, I’ve got another one now. So the last one, is it obvious is it obvious what someone should do next? So give people one clear next step.
23:37.62
Marcus
Amen.
23:38.71
Vicki
um So what do you want them to do do? you want them to book a call with you? You know, discovery call, I guess a lot of photographers would book. um in a discovery call with their prospective clients? Do you want them to download a guide? Is there a lead magnet on there on your website? Or do you want them to just get in touch via a form or via email?
23:56.44
Vicki
So it’s really important to have those clear call to actions on the page, throughout the page. what do you want someone to do when they get to the bottom of that page of your website?
24:05.91
Marcus
Yeah, that’s three really nice tips and what they’ll obviously be, we’ll highlight those in the transcript as well.
24:12.39
Vicki
Okay.
24:12.66
Marcus
um So what about black and white? I just suddenly came into my head then. I had a question around it, but what about black and white photography? People, I um i remember doing a poll on LinkedIn a year ago and people say, oh we love black and white, but I would never use it for my business, which seems a bit of a shame really.
24:22.67
Vicki
Oh, okay.
24:30.49
Marcus
Why is that?
24:32.38
Vicki
Oh, well, again, it I love black and white photography.
24:35.35
Marcus
Yeah, yeah, it’s very evocative.
24:35.47
Vicki
There’s something so moody around it. And yeah, it is. think, again, it’s down to branding. So I think it depends on the company.
24:45.66
Vicki
um It depends on the mood of that company as well. yeah If they’re a vibrant company with bright colours, they’re not going to work with black and white photography.
24:53.14
Marcus
a a
24:54.63
Vicki
Oh, you just reminded me. Do you remember the days of colour popping where people would, if there was a black and white…
24:58.14
Marcus
Yeah, God, I said you do. us it Another the day, I saw one this morning on a Facebook post.
24:59.62
Vicki
be
25:03.23
Marcus
I thought, my God, yes.
25:04.86
Vicki
Yes, have a black and white photo and there might be a big red London bus.
25:07.83
Marcus
Yeah.
25:08.59
Vicki
I remember those days.
25:08.76
Marcus
Yeah. Yeah.
25:09.99
Vicki
um i have seen that happen. But, yeah, I think it’s all about your brand being reflected through in imagery. And I think that’s the reason why not many black white photos are shown on websites.
25:22.30
Marcus
yeah yeah my it’s But maybe, you know, things could change, couldn’t they, Vicky? You know, you want to stand out, you could have you could go for a black and white.
25:28.43
Vicki
Okay.
25:31.88
Marcus
Or another one that I do for my clients sometimes is I do two things. i can never i do when i I tone their images very, very slightly so they’re going to match their brand or their colour brand, their colour wheel.
25:44.23
Vicki
Yeah.
25:45.99
Marcus
So if if it’s, you know, blue is their corporate colour, I might put a little little little blue tone on there so it fits in there.
25:52.87
Vicki
Yeah.
25:53.94
Marcus
I love what anyone another thing you can do is to take the black and white image and tone that blue as well so yeah go on
25:58.87
Vicki
Yeah. You reminded me, you reminded me of my graphic design days now. I remember fiddling around with duotones and monotones in Photoshop.
26:05.78
Marcus
exactly exactly exactly yes yeah
26:07.08
Vicki
Gosh, that’d be great if that came back. See, for me, that feels like it’s come from the I haven’t even touched it since the 90s. That would be cool if that came back.
26:16.28
Marcus
Yeah, i well, obviously, you’ you’re the expert. I’m putting my ideas forward. But where I see people do use it is on that hero image.
26:27.07
Vicki
Hmm.
26:27.22
Marcus
So just talk us through the hero image on a website. So it’s what is that? I mean, I do see more and more.
26:37.87
Marcus
And this is maybe more of personal brand than corporate. But it tends to be a portrait of somebody at the top ah on the masthead.
26:41.46
Vicki
Right.
26:47.54
Vicki
Not always the case. I think it’s about where they are in situ, I suppose. You know, are they in a studio? Are they at work? Are they engaging in conversation?
26:58.50
Vicki
um a lot of my clients are very relational. So if they’re relational, bring that through in that header image. If you if you like to be able to talk to people, where’s that other the person that you’re speaking to?
27:09.45
Vicki
um and I think…
27:09.79
Marcus
Hmm.
27:11.21
Vicki
It doesn’t have to be a static image of that person looking at the camera, you know, be creative with it.
27:16.85
Marcus
that’s right that’s right so important yeah no let’s yeah and that’s not easy vicky it’s not easy to do that you’re going to have some you know it takes time working with somebody to get them relaxed so you can get really authentic images you’re not going to get it from like a headshot day or just going and getting a free headshot done you know it it to get those images that are like
27:17.73
Vicki
I think that’s so important.
27:42.23
Marcus
They just looked like you really caught a moment. That can go on the header, the main area of your website.
27:48.59
Vicki
It takes a lot of time, a lot of time and planning.
27:49.11
Marcus
Takes it thanks a lot of time.
27:51.85
Vicki
i think planning is probably really key for a photographer, um with bringing in the branding elements, get the planning right.
27:52.26
Marcus
Yeah.
27:59.01
Vicki
And then it’s about clicking away. so you’ve got those moments and even the hand gestures coming up and um but away from the camera, just making sure it looks authentic and not staring at the camera um for that initial header, header image.
28:10.58
Marcus
Exactly. And that that I think moving forward, I think, you know, with all the competition but from AI and the squeezing of the business, I think those kind of images, which are difficult to take, are the kind of images that can be really useful for people.
28:29.16
Vicki
Yeah, yeah, we don’t want AI taking over any of our jobs.
28:33.46
Marcus
Well, I think at yeah AI might mean they a know there’s a massive uplift in people putting out content, but they so you still need original imagery to put on that content. I mean, it’s not very good still AI at creating imagery, I don’t think.
28:52.07
Vicki
No, you can still tell the difference now, can’t you?
28:54.30
Marcus
Just about.
28:54.30
Vicki
Yeah.
28:55.22
Marcus
You know, with headshots, maybe it’s very, very close, like a static headshot, like the way you’re what you’re talking about. But if you want go for something a bit beyond like we’re doing now, talking to each other with hand gestures and making it look real and catching that mid-moment, that is really difficult.
29:08.02
Vicki
Yeah. Yeah.
29:09.78
Marcus
And I think that’s worth… Say, go on, please.
29:11.67
Vicki
Yeah, I think it’s about bringing that reality through.
29:11.74
Marcus
I’m talking too much.
29:14.67
Vicki
um you know, AI for me, through imagery, it’s it’s not authentic. You want to bring that character of that person through and that connectivity. We are humans.
29:24.95
Vicki
We need to connect to people. Bring that through in in the way you work and and in your photography.
29:32.22
Marcus
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I just noticed that, Vic, you know, we’ve been talking after half, you know, just come up to a half an hour and immediately it takes that long of a time to for to be more relaxed in front of the camera, both in the camera.
29:43.88
Vicki
Yeah, yeah.
29:45.11
Marcus
And you started using your hands more. And these are the kind of ah images, I think, that we’re looking more to the full, you know, to the future with.
29:47.36
Vicki
Yeah.
29:55.07
Vicki
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Really important. we need We need to stay ahead of those robots.
30:00.18
Marcus
Yes. And again, those are the kind of images that you can use on websites a lot easier. I do think, though, what you did get to come up with those images, you do need direction.
30:11.40
Vicki
Yeah, absolutely. From the very beginning, you’ve got to have direction um and i planning, planning, getting the props in it’s not just It’s not just a quick win with photography.
30:18.30
Marcus
Exactly.
30:21.02
Vicki
I think the planning is key to get that end photo that sits and works well on a website.
30:21.62
Marcus
Yeah. Yeah.
30:26.77
Vicki
Yeah.
30:27.22
Marcus
and And knowing a strap line, you know, what are we trying to say here exactly? Yeah, and presumably when you’re working with your photographers and your clients, you’re coming up with all these things and you’re bridging that gap.
30:39.45
Vicki
Yeah, and I work with copywriters, so I’ll bring in a copywriter um so we can bring in the wording along with the imagery that fits in with the design, which all relate back to the initial branding work.
30:42.84
Marcus
Mm-hmm.
30:50.91
Marcus
Oh, that’s fantastic. That’s, yeah, I mean, um yeah yeah that’s the way it’s got to be done. and you’re going to get much more authentic, much more interesting websites and much more interesting use of the imagery.
30:58.15
Vicki
Yeah.
31:00.63
Vicki
Absolutely.
31:01.50
Marcus
ah Just as we come up to the last closing minutes, Vicky, anything else, any other tips that you can pass over to our photographers?
31:08.05
Vicki
Oh, gosh. i with well do you know it’s an interesting one because I’ve been questioning my business over the next 10 years with AI.
31:08.96
Marcus
know it’s about broad.
31:16.54
Vicki
And I think just continue what you’re doing, be authentic. We have to embrace ai but keep ahead of it to keep up our ah work in place and and be passionate still about the work that we’re doing without AI taking over.
31:31.13
Vicki
um And um what can you do that’s different? And I think it’s about…
31:36.02
Marcus
And
31:36.16
Vicki
really getting and understanding your clients really really well because a robot is never going to be able to do that
31:41.59
Marcus
Yeah, my I mean, I think you’ve, that’s and that takes skill ah to do that, both for, you know, from all aspects of industry, both from you as designer and creative myself as a photographer. You’ve got to push yourself a little bit further. And maybe this is a good thing. Maybe this is what we need, something you know, some but but kick up the bum to get out there to create more interesting um imagery and more interesting stuff for our clients.
32:10.23
Vicki
Yeah, yeah. I mean, just like I’ve evolved my business. I started out 26 years ago as a logo designer and print designer. I hardly do any print nowadays. I’ve had to evolve with the web and now but I’ll be evolving with ai but still making sure i’ve got that human element to everything that i do.
32:25.85
Marcus
Very cool, very cool. v Just before we go, mentioned your passion for photography. Do you still, any photographers that you look at that and really caught your eye or anything you’ve been, you go and see, I’m sorry to put you on the spot there, but yeah.
32:38.20
Vicki
Well, you know, I actually belong to a local camera group and um there’s a fantastic photographer in our group group called Abby Moll and she is an astrophotographer.
32:41.66
Marcus
Yeah.
32:49.20
Vicki
Oh my goodness.
32:49.59
Marcus
oh yes
32:50.12
Vicki
She is working wonders. She’s ah developing retreats in the Canary Islands. retreats at Broadway Tower and it all stemmed from our little photography group in North Leach and honestly check her out doing it I’m actually doing her website for her at the moment she is just stunning she goes she wakes up at two in the morning drives down to Durdle Door and does these amazing amazing astrophotos so yeah not a well-known photographer I’ll say but she is gonna come yeah she’ll come up trumps one day
33:02.74
Marcus
wow yes yeah yes
33:22.26
Marcus
Yeah, and those kind of images still blow people away.
33:25.56
Vicki
Yeah.
33:25.98
Marcus
um Yeah, it’s a great, it’s a really good score. In fact, I know her work because I think you did mention her in a post and I did her have a quick look at into her, yeah, it’s so into her imagery and it’s really nice.
33:32.39
Vicki
Yeah.
33:38.14
Marcus
That’s cool. That’s a great place to end, Vicky. Thank you so much for coming on and being part of the programme and your valuable insights.
33:44.74
Vicki
Thank you for having me. Bye.
33:46.07
Marcus
My pleasure. Bye-bye.
