“Show Notes”
Pete is a New York headshot and portrait Photographer and musician. Peter started photography and music at the same time as a teenager. As a musician Pete is a Jazz musician. And he spent lots of time learning the music of the Jazz masters. He spent time working out bass lines of great jazz music. As you do this over time you start to absorb their work into your style and then develop your own style. And Pete then took this approach to photography. First he started working with New York headshot and portrait Photographer and musicians Peter started photography and music at the same time as a teenager. As a musician Pete is a Jazz musician. And he spent lots of time learning the music of the Jazz masters. He spent time working out bass lines of great jazz music. As you do this over time you start to absorb their work into your style and then develop your own style. And Pete then took this approach to photography. First he started working with Peter Hurley doing what Peter told him and absorbing his style. He then moved on to working with Ivan Weiss. Over time he has worked with others and used these to develop his own style. Sam asks how you can learn from a photographer at a distance if you can’t speak to them. Pete says he did this with Dan Winters and he did work on replicating one of his photographs, from the composition to the lighting to every other element. He says you will learn so much more from this than looking at it in a book. Marcus thinks that photographers don’t look at their history in the same way that musicians do. Pete says to be really good you need to go back and study the past masters before you can move forward with new style. He also says you can’t bypass this process. You can go back before photography and study art as well. Pete says he came into photography through mentorship, no training. This has become easier with digital technology so you can work with photographers in different parts of the world. Pete now coaches photographers himself and he has a Facebook group associated with this. They discuss the similarities between Spotify in music and stock libraries in photography. Pete thinks it’s best to avoid both as they are a very hard way to make money. Pete says professionalism is important both in music and photography. He has been at gigs where people turn up late, don’t dress appropriately and more. It’s important that you realise in both cases this is a business and you need to carefully think about that. He says some photographers don’t return peoples phone calls. That is bad practice, gives a bad impression and loses you work.
Marcus suggests that like musicians concerts are an experience, a photoshoot should be an experience. Sam takes us back to the discussion about Spotify and Shutter Stock and says whenever you use a platform go in with your eyes wide open as that will always be making money for the platform rather than you. Sometimes the platform is useful enough to make it worthwhile but be aware of that the platform are getting from that. Marcus has a selection of Photographers who are musicians Milt Hinton is one that Pete comes up with. He documented his life in images. Marcus’s are: Ansel Adams was a concert pianist as well as a photographer Graham Nash from Crosby Stills and Nash is a photographer Brian Adams also became a photographer. doing what Peter told him and absorbing his style. He then moved on to working with
“Show Transcription”
Marcus: Hello there Sam, how are you doing?
Sam: Very good Marcus and how about you?
Marcus: Yeah I’m very well thank you, very well. We’ve got a guest on today Sam.
Sam: Another one, excellent. Who is it Marcus?
Marcus: We’ve got Pete Coco on, a New York headshot photographer, but look I could say so much about him because I know his work so well but I’m going to let him introduce himself. So Pete, welcome to Shoot to the Top.
Pete: Thank you gentlemen, thanks for having me. I’m happy to be here. So my name is Pete Coco and I am a headshot and portrait photographer based in New York. I’m also a musician but in high-end dramatic portraiture for my clients and I work with a lot of different kinds of clients, corporate clients. I work with a lot of musicians, artists and stuff like that and yeah that’s what I do.
Marcus: Oh that’s just brilliant. How long have you been a photographer for?
Pete: So I started photography around the time I started music which was maybe a little bit after that. So I started playing the bass at about 14, playing electric bass in rock bands and then around 16 I got my first job at a camera store, picked up a both of those artistic pursuits.
Marcus: And I want to talk about with you Pete, amongst other things, is what musicians can learn or what photographers can learn from musicians or vice versa but yeah what we can learn from each other.
Pete: Right, right. There’s so much that we can learn, and actually, being a musician has really helped my photography career. One of the main things I tell people is that I’m primarily a jazz musician, so all of my schooling is in music and jazz. I studied classical as well in school, but primarily, I play jazz. One of the things you learn as a jazz musician is that if you want to learn how to play jazz, you have to learn the music of the masters. For me, I spent many years—and I still do, actually—transcribing the music of my heroes. The key point that I always tell my students when teaching photographers is to find someone whose work inspires them. I remember being in college and hearing the Miles Davis album Relaxin’ with the Miles Davis Quintet. The bass player on that particular album is Paul Chambers, and I remember the first time I heard this bass line—it was like a religious experience for me. It was so moving, and I thought, ‘I want to do that. I remember transcribing that. By transcribing, I mean you literally listen to each note and then learn to play what they played. Often, you’ll write it down, too. Writing it down helps because you can see it visually. The beauty of that process is that by copying what the masters have done—and I’ve done that with many bass players like Ron Carter, who is one of the greats of jazz and a living legend.
Marcus: And you photographed him recently, I believe?
Pete: I did, yeah. I was invited to Mr. Carter’s apartment in the city to photograph him, which was a wonderful experience. We could do a whole podcast on that; he’s a gem of a human being. So, Ron Carter, Ray Brown, Paul Chambers, and Milt Hinton—these were my influences. I have a stack of papers, probably a few feet high, of transcriptions that I did in college. I even wrote my master’s thesis on the playing style of Milt Hinton, one of the famous swing-era bass players. What happens is, when you memorize these people’s styles—especially if they inspire you—you naturally want to do it, which makes it easier. Eventually, by doing enough of this, you begin to absorb their playing and start to find your own style. When I started photography, I did the exact same thing. I had been doing photography for years, but I really got into headshots and portrait photography around 2017. My first influence was Peter Hurley, whom I discovered on YouTube. I wanted to learn how to take headshots, so I mentored with him, studied his work, absorbed his style, and followed his instructions exactly. And then, as I developed and wanted to continue exploring, I discovered one of my favorite photographers, who I think is one of the best portrait artists in the world, Ivan Weiss, who’s actually in London. I don’t know if you gentlemen know Ivan. He has been my biggest influence for portraiture, and so I just did what he said, learned it, and then knew that the more I shoot and work, eventually, my own style would emerge. I’ve also studied with Felix Kuhns and a couple of other people. For photography, if you want to grow your skills, you need to learn from the masters and find someone who inspires you, right? Obviously, if someone’s work doesn’t speak to you, don’t try to copy it. You know what I mean.
Sam: So, I’m interested in what you’re saying. If you’re doing music, you copy the music bit by bit—I did that too. You sit with the guitar, listening to Jimi Hendrix over and over, with the tape going backward and forward. I can see how, with photography, if you’re working with someone and they’re mentoring you, you can learn from them. But how do you do that if the photographer is at a distance, or maybe it’s someone from the past, so you can’t speak to them? With music, you listen to the notes and reproduce them, but with photography, you can’t quite do the same thing. What do you need to do to absorb those photographs into your style?
Pete: Yeah, that’s a great question. I’ve done that too. One of my other favorite photographers is Dan Winters. I found a portrait I liked and invited one of my friends over, who’s kind of like my co-photographer at the studio now, and said, ‘Hey, do you want to help me try and replicate this portrait?’ All we did was look at the portrait—look at the eyes. The key is to look at the catchlights. If you focus on the catchlights, you can figure out some of the lighting. Then, look at how the light is hitting the person. After a while, you start to see things like, ‘I see a rim of light on the side of them, so it’s got to be a kick light,’ that sort of thing. We spent maybe two hours playing with multiple lights in the studio and flags, trying to replicate the portrait. You can do it, even with a photographer
Sam: whose work you’re just trying to replicate.
Pete: It’s so much fun, and you learn so much by doing it. After spending two or three hours, you’ve learned more than you would from reading a book, because the knowledge is applied—it’s that really great, quickly absorbed, applied knowledge.
Sam: Yeah, because presumably you figure out how it’s lit, try it, realize it’s not working, and have to redo it and redo it.
Marcus: Exactly. And it’s not just about lighting. If I may, I’ll share a quick story. When I was studying at university, we were actually given an assignment to go and copy a photographer, just like you mentioned. I was given William Eggleston, who I really liked at the time—and still do, of course. I was so lucky because, after I got the assignment, I realized I was about to go to America to do a photo shoot in Dallas the following week, which was the perfect setting for a William Eggleston-style shoot. When I took the photos back to my tutors, they asked, ‘How did you manage to do this?’ Anyhow, I was quite lucky there. But just going back to what you were saying earlier, Pete, about the way musicians talk—I’m very aware of that. When I talk with my musician friends, we discuss albums, tracks, licks, and certain bits.
Pete: Right, right.
Marcus: But photographers don’t do that, do they? They don’t go back and talk about the history of photography as much.
Pete: No, they don’t. And don’t get me wrong—I’m late to the game when it comes to studying photography. I feel like I’m discovering new people every day, which is great; I love it. But with music, it’s the same thing. Some musicians want to bypass the history, but you can’t do that, especially in jazz. There’s something missing from musicians who try to skip over the masters. Some want to play in a much more modern style, but they don’t want to absorb people like Charlie Parker, Duke Ellington, or Thelonious Monk—those who created the music and wrote the book on it. I don’t think you’re going to have that genuine artifact without knowing and absorbing the history. So I think it’s critically important, and even if you want to—like, I shoot a ton of corporate clients, don’t get me wrong. It’s not like every day I have some kind of artistic pursuit happening in the studio, you know what I mean? But even those corporate clients—they don’t know anything from the history of photography. They just know, ‘I love the way I look in this photograph.’ So, studying and knowing, and having these influences, and knowing your craft—it’s paramount. I think that you can’t bypass that, even if you want to be a headshot photographer. The best headshot photographers I know—they know the history. They’ve studied, they’ve done the work. So, I think it’s really about putting in the work, you know?
Sam: Yeah, it reminds me—I went to an art museum, and it was like Picasso. When you think Picasso, you think of all that modern artwork. I went to the museum, and they had him doing fine art that looked like it was from 200 years before he started doing his modern work. Very fine painting, and then it developed. He didn’t just start with the big, bold stuff; he went through the process.
Pete: Exactly right. That’s how I look at it too. You get a guy who will throw a bucket of paint against the wall and call it art. It’s easy to do that, just like there’s a musician who says, ‘I play free jazz,’ and they just bang on their instrument incoherently. I can respect that if they can also do the traditional thing—if they can swing and play the bass, hang with a band, know the tunes, and have done the work, and that has led them to that style. Sure. Or, the same thing, right? Like you said, it’s funny because I’m reading a wonderful book recently, and it’s all Picasso self-portraits. That’s something I think, Marcus, that goes back to what you mentioned about history. For us, as photographers, it’s not just the history of photography that’s important but also the history of art. Light is light. I have a book of Caravaggio portraits that I’ve been looking at, and I think these are other places where we, as photographers, can find inspiration. You can find it in the visual arts, for sure.
Mrcus: 100%. I totally agree. And the photographers you mentioned—Pete Hurley, I mean—they’re drawing on Richard Avedon, David Bailey, photographers like that. Right. I’ve heard you talk about that, and he’s very open about it. And Bruce Weber as well, who he worked with. Very cool. Yeah, so really, what we’re saying here is you look back to go forward.
Pete: In a way. But it is, in a way, a lot easier, like you guys mentioned, because you can find people to study with. In addition to learning your craft, I think mentorship is key in photography. One thing I learned after multiple degrees in music is that when I decided I wanted to level up my photography and turn it into a viable business, the first thing I knew was—and don’t take this the wrong way—the first thing I said to myself was, ‘I’m not going back to school.’ I didn’t have the time, energy, or money. I already had two little kids when I decided to take my passion for photography and turn it into a portrait business. So I decided, ‘I can fast-track things if I find mentors and study with them.’ The power of mentorship is key—it’s really that old-fashioned way of learning that we’ve lost so much of in our culture. Yes, it’s the apprentice model, right? Yeah. Yusuf Karsh—if you know Karsh, one of my favorites—talks about, I think, his uncle, who was his apprentice. He tells stories about being in his studio, learning from him, and how they could only use daylight, so the studio was only used at certain times. He would have all these artists—I think it was in Boston, but I could be wrong—and how musicians, poets, and photographers would come and hang out at night. That cultural part of it, I think we’ve lost a lot of. But I feel like there’s a renaissance happening, where people are embracing the apprentice and mentor mentality again. It’s become so easy now. I was able to study with Ivan, even though I’m in New York and he’s in London, because of technology, like we’re using right now. So there are ways you can connect with people in profound ways that weren’t available before, and I think photographers should take advantage of that.
Marcus: I guess, yes. Did you assist at all, Peter? Did you assist any photographers?
Pete: When I started with Peter Hurley, I joined his group. Then I worked my way through the group—there are different levels you can achieve—so I became an associate photographer in his group. I started going to his headshot intensives that he does at his studio in New York, assisting and helping other photographers. That’s such a great way to learn, right? By teaching. You know this from being a university lecturer—which I’ve also done in my musical career—you learn so much more by teaching. I actually have my own coaching group now, which I’ll plug here—it’s a small group. We have our own forum and meet weekly to discuss everything from business to photography skills to mindset, which are the three ingredients I think are most important. We have challenges, and we learn from each other—it’s really cool. I also have a Facebook page, which is public for any photographers. People post their work for critique, and I post what’s going on in my world. There are some really talented photographers in there as well.
Sam: Amazing. We’ll put all the links in the show notes as usual, and for all the photographers we’ve talked about, there will be links to them too. So, you can go and see their images and so on. I was wondering, since we’ve talked a lot about musicians and how we can learn from them creatively, if we can also learn from them commercially, maybe in terms of marketing as well. Are there things musicians are doing in the way they’re making money or marketing themselves that photographers can learn from now? My sense is that it’s actually harder to make money in music than in photography—correct me if I’m wrong—but it doesn’t mean there aren’t still lessons to learn.
Marcus: Before we go into that, can I just quickly mention something that’s on my mind? Photographers who are musicians or musicians who became photographers—for our listeners out there, see if you can think of any. I’ll tell you who they are at the end of the show. In the meantime, try to think of photographers who are musicians or musicians who became photographers. Now, let’s go in with that theme—money and marketing. Peter, let’s talk about it specifically, because it’s quite a broad topic. Let’s dive in and talk about how Spotify has affected the music industry and how the industry has reacted. If you look at the music industry now compared to 20 years ago, they’ve maintained the same level of income; they haven’t grown or lost money. So let’s discuss that.
Pete: There’s so much to say. First, on a granular level—putting aside Spotify for a second—you’re talking about how the overall income levels haven’t changed, but where the money ends up has changed, which I think is a big part of the problem. I know plenty of artists, especially in art music like me, who get these royalty checks that are just criminal. You’ll get a check for three cents after thousands of streams—it’s horrible. Spotify, Apple Music, whatever it is.
Sam: And stock libraries—are they a fair equivalent to Spotify? Are they comparable?
Pete: I think so.
Sam: But is there a way to make money from these, or is it better to find other avenues?
Pete: Personally, I think it’s better not to even try those avenues, especially with AI now. Stock photography seems to be on the chopping block because once people can get images from AI, they won’t want to pay to license them from a real photographer. It’s sad, but I think that’s where we’re headed. For transparency, I don’t have much in that world because I mostly work with clients one-on-one. However, I have a friend in Australia who does brilliant landscapes and does well selling prints. I think there’s still a market for that, but usually, when people ask me what I learned from being a musician about marketing as a photographer, I tell them I learned everything not to do.
Sam: There seems to be a theme here—learning lessons from musicians, and often bad ones.
Pete: Yes, unfortunately. Artists often make terrible business people because we’re so focused on our art. One of the most important lessons I’ve learned is that you have to deal with the professional side of things. For instance, I know so many great musicians here in New York, working in jazz with some of the top musicians in the world, but they can’t show up on time, don’t know how to dress for the gig, and don’t know how to act appropriately around clients. They don’t do well for themselves, and you wouldn’t want to hire them, even if they’re great at their instrument. I think the same goes for photographers. You need to separate the business side from the artistic side. That’s tough for a lot of artists, especially when you’ve spent so much time honing your craft. But you have to deal with the business side of things—understanding finances, knowing how taxes work, having a good accountant, and using the right software. Even more importantly, you need to provide your clients with a high-quality, professional experience from start to finish. Some photographers don’t even return phone calls. You could be the best photographer in your market, but if you can’t communicate with clients and sell your services, you won’t have work. These things seem simple but are hard to do—following up with people, staying on top of emails and calls, and having a website that’s optimized for booking rather than just being artistic. If you want to make money, the website needs to be clear and concise. Ultimately, it’s all about what you do—how you treat people and handle your clients. For me, when I’m working with clients, it’s like entering the zone, just like with music. You practice your craft, and then, when you’re in the moment, everything clicks. As photographers, when something isn’t working with a client—whether it’s the lighting or their particular features—you have to adjust quickly.
Marcus: My take is similar, Pete. The way musicians adapted to lesser income from record sales is by promoting live gigs and making it an experience. Tickets cost more now than 20 years ago, but it’s all about the experience. That’s something photographers can learn—making shoots and client interactions an experience.
Pete: Absolutely. That’s key. You can charge more if you give clients a full experience. The work has to be top-notch, but if clients enjoy working with you, you’ll succeed. People want a photographer they’d want to have a beer with—that’s the kind of person they want to hire. They want someone they’re going to be comfortable with, especially corporate clients, because most people hate getting their picture taken. So, you already have someone who’s not in their comfort zone. I 100% agree with you, and I think that’s going to win the day for us, especially for what I do—portraits and headshots—as people are more and more accosted by machines. You can’t even go to the grocery store without, like, I just want to pay for my blueberries, right? And I have this dumb machine yelling at me to put my card in, or put it on the blade, and then it doesn’t work. We’re lacking so much human experience that I feel like that’s a big opportunity for us. I 100% agree with you, and you can charge a premium too if you offer that.
Sam: That’s it, it’s the same in any industry, isn’t it? We’re looking at websites, and yes, there is going to be a bottom end going to AI, but there are people who don’t want to be screamed at because their groceries aren’t precisely in the bagging area. They just want to talk to a person and get that experience. Now, I want to go slightly back to that Spotify thing. We were talking about Spotify and Shutterstock. I think that’s kind of a lesson we can learn when someone comes to us and asks, ‘Would you like to be part of this platform or market experience?’ The key is to think: Is somebody selling me their platform? Because if you’re on their platform, they’re the ones making the money, whether it’s Shutterstock, Spotify, or any new platform they’re selling you. We all use LinkedIn, which is a platform that makes money from us. So, you have to go in with your eyes wide open and ask, ‘Can I use it to my advantage, or am I just giving them money? I’m working, and they’re making the money.
Pete: I agree, and can I add one little thing to that, which I think is important? This is why it’s so important to build your business strategically. I know some photographers who get the majority of their work from LinkedIn, and they’ve really honed in on the LinkedIn game. But the problem with that, for me, is that you’re beholden to the app and its algorithm. That’s why I think it’s good to cultivate multiple places for finding business because if the algorithm changes, you might be in trouble.
Sam: Oh, it’s the same anywhere you get your leads, isn’t it? If you’re heavily dependent on one thing and it changes suddenly—whether it’s digital or in-person meetings—you’re in trouble. But if you’ve got a mix and one source goes away, you’ve got the others, haven’t you?
Pete: Exactly. That’s how I’ve built my business. I have the website, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook—although younger people don’t like Facebook. If you mention Facebook to someone under 30, they’re like, ‘What? What is that?’
Sam: My kids say it’s social media for grannies.
Pete: Exactly! But you know what? Some grannies need a headshot. They think we’re grannies!
Marcus: Well, there you go! So, as we’re wrapping up here, Pete, can you think of any photographers who are musicians, or vice versa? I’ve got three in mind.
Sam: Well, it depends how many musicians you think there are.
Marcus: Let’s not go too deep; it’s just a quick question.
Pete:There are so many, but I’ll mention my favorite: the jazz bass player Milt Hinton. I encourage all your listeners to check out his photo books because Milt Hinton documented his life as a jazz musician with his camera. He has some of the most amazing photography of every jazz legend from around 1935 until he passed. He lived until he was 90. He’s my favorite. He has multiple books, and you’ll often see his work in galleries. But who are you thinking about? There are a lot.
Marcus: Yes, it’s a common thing. Many photographers are also musicians. My first one is very obvious: Ansel Adams.
Sam: Oh, he was a musician?
Pete: I didn’t know he was a musician.
Marcus: Yes, he was a concert pianist and gave up a very successful career as a concert pianist to focus on photography. My second one is Graham Nash from Crosby, Stills, and Nash. He’s a really good photographer—I’ve seen his work, and it’s amazing.
Sam: We’re running out of time, Marcus, so the next one?
Marcus: Okay, my last one is a musician who became a photographer: Bryan Adams.
Sam: Bryan Adams? You mean the one who wrote the song for Robin Hood?
Marcus: Yes, he’s a fashion photographer now.
Sam: Oh wow, I didn’t know that.
Pete: There we go! Look it up—it’s very cool.
Marcus: Well, I found it interesting the link between music and photography. What you think Sam?
Sam: Oh yes, its been very interseting, learnt lots of things. All the insturutction i will put on show notes about his Pete and you get in touch. And please do sign up the Newsletter, go to the shoottothetop.com So, Thanks Pete for being with us, it was amazing show and Marcus i will see you next week.
Marcus: Thank you Pete.
Pete: Thanks Guys.
