“Show Notes”
This show is about working with models but is also working with all sorts of different people on a shoot.
How do you find a fashion model for a test?
A test is a situation where everyone is working together for free to build images for their portfolio. It is a very typical way of starting the fashion world. Marcus says the first thing is what a fashion model looks like. Look at fashion magazines to get an idea for this. Marcus says that fashion models should look striking / unusual. Marcus says now there is a very positive change from everyone being very skinny to there being more body shapes seen in fashion. Although he says there is still a long way to go here.
A good place to go to find a model to do a test with is a local model agency and then you need to find the newest models on their books. The newer models will be the ones who also want images for their portfolio. Agencies may ask to see your portfolio before letting you shoot one of their models. This can be an issue if this is also your first step into the world of fashion photography. But don’t let this be a barrier to you, give it a try.
Street casting is another way to find a model. So approach people on the street who you think would be a great model. Having a portfolio to show as part of this is helpful.
There also online model agencies. Marcus thinks are not necessarily the best models for fashion shoots. But you can still approach them. Sam says setting up this test means you have a group of people all starting out in fashion who can all help each other as a network.
Marcus now moves on to posing a model and this part of the podcast is also relevant to other areas of photography. Although he doesn’t like the word posing. He has three ways to help get a model / subject to pose in a certain way. They are Mirroring, Role play, Observation
Mirroring
He got this idea from the photographer Richard Avedon. Basically you have to get “in tune” with the model and they will naturally mirror what you do without thinking about it. So if you cross your arms they do to.
Role Play
Marcus says he does this a lot in brand photography. Marcus suggests scenarios and then the subject acts them out
Observation
This is about looking deeply at the subject, spotting what they do naturally, remembering it and asking them to do it again. He says there are many other ways but Marcus thinks these are the most effective. Marcus says one of the most important things on a shoot with a model, or anyone, is the “vibe” in the studio. Music is a good way to create a vibe, both using music the model like, but also the music can be used to effect the mood on the shoot.
Marcus’s final hint is that if you are going to put together fashion shoot make sure you know who it is going to be for as different magazines have different styles.
“Show Transcription”
Sam: Hi Marcus, how are you doing?
Marcus: Oh I’m very well Sam, how are you?
Sam: Excellent, very good as well. I know it’s a little bit grey here today.
Marcus: Oh mate, you’re quite grey, you want to come over to England mate. We’ve had a bit of a storm, it’s like winter here and it’s supposed to be summer.
Sam: Not when this show’s going on Marcus.
Marcus: No I know that, yeah.
Sam: So today Marcus is going to be delving into his knowledge and experience of fashion photography and talking to us a little bit about working with models I understand.
Marcus: Yeah that’s right, that’s exactly right Sam. Hi there, it’s Marcus. A quick plug if I may for my online portfolio reviews. These are just perfect for the photographer who wants to get better clients and of course make more money. They are an hour long, one-to-one and they are recorded on Zoom so that means I can send you a copy. For the hour it’s only £95 and you can sign up via my website on the tuition page. So thank you very much and I look forward to seeing you there. Yeah I’m going to be talking about how to find a model for a fashion suit and working with models. But a lot of this information, especially in the latter half of the show, is applicable I’d like to feel for working with anybody really, any subject, any person, you know for a branding shoot, a wedding shoot or anything like that. So hopefully there’s a bit of a crossover there.
Sam: I guess there’s some similarities but there’s the big difference in that a model is being paid to be there while somebody whose wedding is paying you to be there. So there’s a big relationship difference there isn’t there?
Marcus: Exactly Sam, exactly. But let’s start off in the beginning, let’s start off with how you find a fashion model and let’s talk about, let’s imagine it’s for a test and when I say a test I mean this is where you’re working with a team of people, a model, a stylist, a makeup artist maybe and yourself and you’re all doing it for free. What you’re getting out of it is basically a print. It’s not a print; it’s a file—digital files, images you can use for your portfolio.
Sam: Okay, so then all of those people can take those images, and the model can take them to show the work they’ve done. The stylist can do the same, and you can do the same, using them as examples of your work for your portfolio.
Marcus: Exactly. I would imagine, for most people listening to the show who are dipping their toe into the world of fashion, this is how they’re going to start off. It is a very typical way of starting off. So, first of all, let’s see what makes a fashion model. Obviously, I’ve got to be careful here because, you know, we’re talking about people’s looks, etc., and you’ve got to be fairly sensitive toward this. But a good place to start, to identify what a fashion model is, is to look at magazines. See what’s out there. Look at magazines, watch videos on YouTube or whatever, and start working out in your mind what makes a fashion model. There are certain differentiators that define fashion models. It’s broadening these days—I’m going to go into that—but there are still different parameters the industry follows. So, look at magazines. Now, when you’re looking at magazines, you can look at high-end fashion magazines like Vogue or i-D, which are a bit more edgy, or you could be looking at lower-end or more commercial magazines like GQ or FHM, something like that. So, there are different models.
Sam: Do they exist anymore, Marcus?
Marcus: Pardon, Sam, say that again?
Sam: Do they exist anymore, Marcus? GQ and FHM—haven’t they gone?
Marcus: Yeah, they do—no, they do! No, I’m pretty sure they do, yeah. I’m subscribed to GQ‘s newsletter, so yeah, and FHM still goes on. You can still get those magazines. So that’s going to give you an idea of what a fashion model is—both male and female. When you’re looking for a fashion model, you’re really looking for something specific. And I think this is where people get confused. It’s not about being pretty with that sort of boy-next-door, girl-next-door look. More importantly, it’s about looking unusual—or maybe the word is striking—someone who looks a bit different.
Sam: And is that due to the model, or is that often just due to the makeup on set?
Marcus: No, it’s the model, Sam. It’s the model. You know, when I’ve done model castings or been to modeling events, it’s a different world. It’s like going into a space where you see people you don’t normally encounter. Everybody looks quite striking. There can be different body types, and different—well, I have to be careful here—genders, I think that’s how we would term it nowadays. But certainly, you know,
Sam: There are boys and girls, Marcus. I think we can say that. We don’t have to be too cautious.
Marcus: But certainly, there are parameters. Height is one of them, but that’s just a general rule. Size has really opened up. It used to be the skinny people or the muscly guys you’d see in the magazines. Nowadays, it’s much broader.
Sam: There’s been a nice change, hasn’t there? That kind of improvement in who’s being represented in magazines, adverts, and so on—on the screen.
Marcus: It has changed, Sam. I don’t think it’s changed dramatically, though. I think there’s a superficial change. You know, like, companies like Dove, for example, with their Real Women campaign—well, that was all set up, I believe. But yeah, certainly, in the world we live in now, it has opened up to a lot more different types of people. But striking is the word we’re looking for, I think. Okay, so where can you look for these types of people? Well, there are different places. The first one I’d recommend is a recognized model agency. You know, here in my town, Bristol, there are two or three of them that I’ve used. These are bona fide companies that have established models and new models. And it’s the new models that we’re looking forward to testing with. You’ll be lucky to work with an established model. What you want is to be looking for what they call new faces. These are people who have very little experience; they might be younger—just bear that in mind—but they’re people who are up for working with photographers or stylists for testing.
Sam: So, they’ve got to be starting out, which is probably similar to what you’d be doing if you’re looking to do free work. If they’ve got experience, they’ll have lots of shots, and they won’t be interested.
Marcus: Yeah, exactly, Sam. Now, if you go to an agency, they’ll want to see some kind of work that you’ve done before. That can be tricky—it’s like, how do I start off with this? But look, start opening up dialogue, see what they say, and take it from there. Don’t overthink it—just get in there and try to work with them. The next way is what we call street casting, which is when you might see somebody literally in the street, at a party, at an event, or whatever, and you think, ‘Wow, they’ve caught my eye!’ You’ve got to go up to them, explain what you’re looking for, and ideally have a portfolio with you, so you can show them examples of previous work that you want to do or would like to do.
Sam: Yeah, that’s going to be quite hard for a lot of people. It’s quite daunting to just randomly approach someone in the street and say, ‘Hello, you look quite striking, can I take your photograph?’
Marcus: Yeah, well, I’ve done it. That’s how I’ve found some great models—by doing it at parties and stuff. You’ve just got to do it. That’s part of being a photographer, isn’t it? If you really want to do it, you’re going to find these people. You’ve got to be strong enough to approach them and deal with it.
Sam: Yeah, I guess it’s about doing it in the right way as well, isn’t it?
Marcus: In the right way, of course. Now, there are also online model agencies that I’m sure our listeners are aware of, like Purple Port and Model Mayhem. But when I look at fashion photographers’ portfolios who are starting out and have used these online agencies, the models are not really the type you’d want for fashion photography. They tend to be pretty—more like the girl or boy next door—rather than striking. That’s just my opinion, and I’ve spoken to agencies and magazines about it, and they all tend to agree with me. Ideally, you want to go to the bona fide model agencies. But look, if you’re stuck, these online agencies are an option. Sometimes they ask for money. Actually, it’s becoming more and more common now. I wouldn’t go down that route.
Sam: If you’re paying, then it becomes a whole different game. I guess in some ways, it’s almost like you’re creating a network of people starting out together, and as they develop in the industry, you can all help each other. You know, one year you’re starting out, and as you forge connections, you can help each other as you move forward. If one person advances, they can help with connections.
Marcus: Exactly, Sam. And as I said, when you’re shooting fashion, it’s a team effort. You’ll find participants who know models or have contacts with model agencies. Your stylist will no doubt have connections with model agencies, so you’re not just on your own. You’re working together, as you rightly say. Another way to find models is through social media, of course. Instagram springs to mind as probably the most popular method. Yeah, I’ve got nothing against that at all. And I guess most models working with agencies probably have an Instagram account, right? Exactly. For me, though, the best way I’ve found models is by going directly to agencies. I’ve gotten some fantastic models—really good ones. These agencies evaluate their models. If the models don’t turn up on time, you can tell the agency, and they won’t look kindly upon that. So, there’s a two-way transaction going on. Okay, so that’s how you find a model: look for someone striking, reference magazines to get an idea of what I mean by that, and if possible, use an agency. Alright, let’s say you’ve got your model lined up, your test shoot and style all set up. Now we can start talking about how to work with this model—how to pose them. This will apply to other photographers as well, whether in weddings, branding, or other genres. I’ve identified three different techniques you can use to work with a model.
Sam: I don’t like the word ‘posing’—I’m struggling to find another term—but basically, you’re getting them to stand and look in the right way, yes?
Marcus: Yes, that’s it. Yeah, so the three techniques I use are mirroring, role play, and observation. I’ll break them down for you now. But before I do that, I know there are posing guides and things like that.
Sam: I think my daughter has one—don’t all teenage girls have them? I’m joking, Marcus!
Marcus: You’re joking, okay. Well, I wouldn’t use a posing guide personally, because the person you’re working with might have a different body shape or size, or might be uncomfortable doing those things. It can overcomplicate things. These three techniques I’m going to share are the ones that have worked best for me. So, mirroring—what do I mean by that? I actually got this idea from the famous photographer Richard Avedon. The way he shoots is simple: he crosses his arms, and because he’s on such an empathetic wavelength with the subject, they copy him. They’re not even thinking about it—they just start mimicking his actions in a very natural way. Of course, you can direct them more overtly if needed. You might say, ‘Look over there,’ and instead of leaving it vague, say, ‘Look at the corner of the room’ or ‘Look at my hand,’ and move your hand where you want them to look. That’s mirroring—fairly straightforward. Next is role play. I use this a lot in branding photography. I describe a scene to the model, like, ‘Imagine you’re dealing with a customer and you’re really pissed off. How would you act?’ That’s role play, and people enjoy it. They can really get into it. It’s up to you to judge whether it’s working. The final one is observation. This is a skill you need to develop. It’s about looking closely at your subject, noticing their natural movements, and asking them to repeat anything that looks good. If they cross their legs and it looks good, ask them to do it again. You repeat it until it looks natural. Those are the three techniques I use most often. I’m sure our listeners have their own methods, but for me, getting the right vibe in a studio setting is more important than in a location shoot. To create the right vibe, you want to make sure everything is working—your equipment, your lights, everything. Having an assistant is helpful, so they can adjust the lights while you keep interacting with the model. Music is also great for setting the mood. I always ask people what their favorite music is, and I try to have something that matches in my record collection.
Sam: I think nowadays, Marcus, with Spotify, we can probably do that.
Marcus: Well, yes, I use Spotify, even though I don’t love how they treat their artists.
Sam: But yes, you can use it to create the right atmosphere. It doesn’t have to be just their favorite songs—it could be something calming, upbeat, or mood-setting. Music really helps direct the vibe in the studio.
Marcus: Very much so, Sam. Music can change everything—it can keep things fun, dramatic, or relaxed. For example, classical music or opera for dramatic shoots, rock or funk for dancing, or techno for something with a strong beat. You can even get the model to move in sync with the beat, and suddenly you’re working in tune with each other. That’s what’s in my mind. I have worked, especially in my early days, with models that came up and over-posed. They had all these stock moves that they probably do with other photographers, and you just notice it straight away. You think, ‘Oh, what are they doing?’ They’re just moving all the time, and I find that a bit cheesy. So, if that’s not what you want, you have to be really firm and say, ‘Look, I’m great with what you’re doing, but just stand there and look straight forward at the camera. Dial it all back. Once you do your research into this and start looking at fashion magazines, you’ll see that is a ‘look’—and I’m doing air quotes here—that is a look. You won’t often see smiling in a fashion magazine, obviously depending on the magazine.
Sam: It’s fairly serious-looking in fast fashion. That’s probably the last time I looked at one, Sam—maybe at the dentist, I imagine!
Marcus: But yeah, it’s an attitude, and it just works. I’ve noticed the better models I work with don’t need to do anything. They just stand there, and it’s like, ‘Wow, that looks amazing.’ Just keep it there, and they don’t do anything—they just look great. With the clothes on, with the styling and all that, it just all comes together. That’s ideally what you’re after—where it just flows.
Sam: Excellent. Okay, thank you, Mark. There are lots and lots of ideas there. Anything to finish off with? Final hints and tips?
Marcus: Yeah, okay. My final tip would be, Sam—and I’ve slightly touched on this—if you’re going to be shooting a fashion shoot, try to think about what magazine it’s for, because different magazines have different styles. Men’s magazines, for instance, like Men’s Fashion Arena, which I’ve shot for, have a very different style compared to FHM or GQ. Be firm in your mind about what the shoot is going to be for. The same goes for women’s fashion. Vogue is very different from Marie Claire or Cosmopolitan, which are more lifestyle magazines. So, when you’re putting a shoot together, really think about who the magazine is for and who you want to work with. That’s going to help you put it all together and get the right model.
Sam: Yes, cool. Brilliant! Thank you, Marcus. Lots of amazing ideas there, as always—lots to think about and take away. And listeners, make sure you sign up for the newsletter, so you can get even more of these ideas. It means the podcast will arrive in your inbox every single week, and you’ll get ideas about past episodes, weekly hints and tips, and, Marcus, the opportunity to become a guest and much more! So please, go to the website, shoottothetop.com, and sign up for the newsletter list. Marcus, I’ll see you next week!
Marcus: See you next week, Sam. Thank you very much.
Sam: Bye.
