“Watch the Podcast”
“Listen the Podcast”
“Show Notes”
Are you a commercial photographer in the UK looking to take your business to the next level? You’re likely focused on your portfolio, marketing, and networking—and those are all crucial. But what if we told you there’s a single, powerful skill that can dramatically improve your client relationships, boost your likeability, and ultimately lead to more business?
In this episode, we chat with Colin D Smith, a true expert on the art of listening. While most of us think we’re good listeners, the reality is that very few people have truly mastered this skill. Colin explains why deep listening is so important, not just for personal connections, but specifically for professional success.
Colin breaks down how a few simple changes can make a huge difference:
- Build Trust & Likability: By asking open-ended questions like, “How do you feel about that?” or “What more do you want to say about that?”, you encourage clients to open up. This helps you build genuine trust and makes you more likable, which is essential for securing future work.
Improve Client Relationships: When you’re a better listener, your clients will also listen more closely to you. This creates a powerful, two-way street that ensures your clients feel heard and understood, making them feel confident they’ve chosen the right person for the job.
Get More from Networking: Networking isn’t about pitching yourself; it’s about connecting. The better you listen, the faster you can build rapport and stand out in a crowded room.
Colin shares practical techniques to help you sharpen your skills:
- Be Present: Clear away distractions and go into conversations with a calm, settled mind. Don’t just hear what someone is saying; truly listen by observing their body language and letting them finish their thoughts.
The Power of the Pause: After someone finishes speaking, wait a full three seconds before you respond. This simple pause prevents interruptions and gives you time to fully absorb what was said.
Listen for the Little Things: Pay attention to phrases like, “I’ve never told this to someone before.” This shows they are trusting you with something personal and gives you a powerful opportunity to deepen the connection.
Don’t let your communication skills hold you back. Deep listening can be learned, and it might just be the most valuable investment you make in your photography business.
Want to learn more? You can connect with Colin at:
- Website: dexteritysolutions.co.uk
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/colindsmith1
Email: colin.smith@dexteritysolutions.co.uk
“Show Transcription”
Marcus: Well, hello there, Sam, and how are you today?
Sam: Very good, Marcus, how are you?
Marcus: Brilliant, absolutely brilliant, thank you, and as per normal, but even more so, a little bit more today, I think. I’m really listening, very listening. That’s a bit of a clue, isn’t it? I’m looking forward to listening to our guest this morning, because we’re going to be talking about listening.
Sam: Excellent, yes. So, and hello listeners, Marcus, we need to say that as well. Hello to all our listeners, and to our guest, Colin Smith. So, I’m going to let him introduce himself. Colin, welcome to the show.
Colin: Lovely, thank you, Sam, and thank you, Marcus. I’m delighted to be here talking, well, there’s an irony, really, in talking about listening, but you’ve got to tell people about it sometime. So, when I’m introduced, they go, so, who are you? And I say, my name’s Colin Smith, but I’m also known as the listener. And usually, I get two responses to that. One is the what, which they think is funny, and the other is a quizzical look, as if to say, the listener, which is unusual. And I usually start by asking them a question, and I’ll ask it to you too, but you don’t need to answer. When was the last time you felt really heard? And they go, oh, gosh, that’s a while back, actually. But surely, you know, isn’t listening the same as hearing? And I go, no, it’s very different. And so, they’re very quizzical, and they’re very interested at that point. And so, that’s really been my business, calling myself a listener for about the last 10 years, I suppose. And if you were to sort of break it up into the functions of it, first one is, is I listen to people, because people need to feel heard. And in fact, somebody would say, people are dying to be heard, literally and figuratively. So, helping them to feel heard, helping them to feel valued, helping to feel that they matter. And the second is that the quality of my attention, the quality of my listening, actually improves the quality of the person I’m with thinking. And so, I help them to think better. And then the third area is, once they got past those two, they realized, actually, they don’t listen very well at all, and they’re keen to learn to listen. So, I teach people how to listen. And that might be in coaching, it might be in a group setting, that’s often the important one, because that leads to other things. And then a realization, actually, they don’t listen very well. So, yeah, that’s a little bit about me.
Sam: Amazing. Yeah, really, really interesting things there. I think I have that conversation with my daughter a lot, especially when you’re talking to them on the phone, and it’s like, yeah, and she’s like, I’m listening. And like, no, no, you’re hearing, you’re not listening, and you’re trying to get that different feeling repeated. I’m actually hearing, actually, thought about it.
Marcus: Can I play devil’s advocate for a second here, Colin? Why do we need to be good listeners?
Colin: Great question. Some would say that if you put up, if you asked a group of people, 100 people, how many of you think you listen better than average? Pretty much most people with their hands up. Whereas, actually, very few people are listeners, are able to listen properly. And so, hearing is something that we do without thinking. So, we could be in a crowded restaurant, very busy, but somebody calls your name out, Marcus, you’re going to go, does somebody call my name out? It keeps us safe. Whereas listening, you have to intend to listen, which is very different. And it’s important because of the way I think people feel when they felt heard. And I think we’re becoming more and more lonely. There’s a rise in suicide. There’s a rise in mental health. I think the primary issue is we do not listen. And people don’t feel heard just because you’ve heard the words. So, you could have a conversation with your wife or your daughter or partner or whatever, and they say, yes, you’ve heard what I’ve said, but you’re still not listening. And you think, ah, there’s something different. Because when you really do feel heard, you’ve been listened to. We get a situation, for example, that I can be with my partner and she says, Colin, you’re not listening. Then I think right next time, I’m going to make sure I am listening. So she tells me something and I repeat back exactly what she said. And she says, fine, yes, you’ve repeated back what I’ve said, but you’re still not listening. So listening is very different. People feel heard, not just hearing the words, but they feel heard. The whole body feels as though they’ve been heard. And that’s the difference. And that’s, I think the reason, going back to what I was saying earlier, the real reason for people needing to be heard is the rise in mental health, the rise in loneliness, the rise in suicide, which the more people, more of us can listen better to others, the less, I think, we drop those numbers.
Sam: Yeah, everybody kind of wants to talk about them and almost a lot of people in conversation, they’re waiting for the next gap to say their next thing, rather than listening to what the people around them are actually saying.
Colin: Yes. So, for example, if I could answer now what you’ve just said and take it somewhere else, I could turn to you and say, that’s interesting. What more? What more do you think or feel or want to say about that? You go, oh, and even in that moment, you feel heard because I’m now interested in you. People are interested in me. It’s so rare. Even that question. And what more to someone? Most people will smile, then think, and then talk some more.
Sam: So, yeah, Colin, having listened to what you’re saying, we do need to move on a bit. And we have a podcast. And we talk about business as well. And that is also, you know, important process human beings, but can also be so useful for us in business and for people as photographers. And in marketing, we talk a lot and we talk a lot about the show that people like to talk about themselves and are interested about themselves. And we don’t talk so much about, well, let’s give them that space to actually talk about themselves and listen to them. And we talked a bit about networking as well, how important networking just listening is. You don’t want to be that person selling that person talking about themselves. You want to be that person who listens and some of the skills you teach could be extremely useful and powerful there.
Colin: Yes, very much so. This whole business of being a listener in a networking event or in business really is important. It can help build trust. It can help build rapport, which we talked about briefly earlier. And you become likeable. And people buy from people. And, you know, if you’re a, let’s use the example of photographers, you know, we’re employing the photographer to do something really important for us. It could be a wedding, it could be a christening or a birthday. It’s a one-off situation. And not only do I want you to deliver, but I want to actually to make it special as well. And the more questions the photographer can ask of the customer, the more they’re going to share with them, you know, and that will be questions about what more, tell me more. Because what you want to do is get them to relax, to think better, to really explain what they want. What are they trying to get from this? What is the outcome for them? And all of those things. And then what ideas have they got? And they need to be able to test you out. So if you say something like, well, what we’d like to do is we’d like to have everyone standing on their heads. And if the photographer immediately goes, no, no, no, no, that’s that’s stupid, then they’re going to be less, they’re going to be more reluctant to say more and to really get what they want. Whereas if they go, that’s an interesting idea. And the more you get them to explore what they want, then they’re going to be looking at you to, okay, now you’ve heard all this. What are your ideas based on your experience? Because we’ve only done one wedding or about to do one wedding. You’ve done hundreds. So what are the things that you’ve learned which are best. They can be much more receptive to hearing you and listening to you when you’ve listened to them.
Marcus: Very interesting. I love the idea you’re saying that of that very open question. Tell me more. That is something that I can definitely see myself using. So is this is deeper listening? Is this a skill that you can learn? Is it something we’re born with? What are your thoughts on that, Colin?
Colin: So there’s there are a number of levels. The first level is obviously hearing. What comes after that is is a skill that you can learn. And you can learn by various elements of it. And you start off by making it easier for yourself. So for instance, clear away all the distraction. So take the mobile phone away, put the laptop down, face the person that you’re speaking to. But I think it actually goes earlier than that. So often we come into meetings thinking, what can I get rather than what can I give? And if we have an intention to listen, we set that intention early on in our minds, even sitting quietly beforehand. I just think it’s sitting in the car waiting five minutes early. Let me just settle myself, because the more I settle myself and arrive in the present moment, the more likely are that you’re going to be able to respond better to the person that your customer. So there are a number of skills that you can actually learn. As I say, one of them is about distracting. Another is not interrupting. Now, it’s okay as you, I think it was, Marcus, just said, yeah, that’s fine. Those little movements and little moments or words can help me speak more. You’re still with me. You’re still with me. So that’s another one. So not interrupting, actually saying, oh, that’s really interesting, Colin. Let me just ask you a question or let me take it further. And I’m about to say something. Or worst of all, I’ve shared something that’s really emotional and you jump in with something yourself. So another one is not interrupting. Not trying to fix. You know, how many people come to you with a problem that actually all they want you to do is listen. We try and fix. Oh, don’t worry. Let me tell you. So doctors are very good at this. They said that three out of four doctors interrupt the patient before they finished telling them what the problem is. And of those three out of four, on average, they do so within 18 seconds. And when they found, you know, when they looked at the rest of them, those that did finish, on average, it was about 30 seconds. So another 12 seconds in the conversation and they’d got it all out. And they’re very quick. Doctors, obviously, they don’t have a lot of time. They’re quick to find the answer. Here’s the solution. Here’s the prescription. Off you go. And at the doorway, the person turns to the doctor, say, ah, something I needed to tell you doctor, which is this. And the doctor goes, oh, my goodness. Come back, tears the prescription up. Tell me more. And so I say, when I explain that, I said, are you an 18 second brother, a mother, an 18 second leader, 18 second manager? We want to fix and we want to do it quickly. And when you think about it, when you interrupt, when you fix it, so you’re already telling them a message, which is, I’m more important than you are. My thinking, my thoughts, my ideas are more important than yours. But it’s funny, when you let people speak, let them get their thinking out, they can actually stand and go, that’s all I needed. Thank you so much for listening. And you think I’ve done nothing, but you’ve done a lot. You’ve enabled them to get to where they need to be. So there’s a whole range of skills that you can learn. But I think once you get past all of that, you start just showing up present, fully present. And therefore you can respond to wherever that person is. And that’s where you become a listener as opposed to listening or the early stage, just hearing. So there’s three stages. So it is a skill that can be learned. And I think the more you get to understand it, the more you can get past that. So rather than doing listening, you become a listener. Does that make sense?
Marcus: Yeah, perfect.
Colin: There is a journey and you never finish.
Sam: No, it sounds really interesting. And what I write actually is, I think sometimes technology with the Zinc calls and stuff can get in the way. I find sometimes when you’re having those conversations with people, when you’re doing things like Zinc calls, it can cut the gaps. You know, those little couple of millisecond gaps between people talking and listening. And that can really mess that up, I find. Sometimes you can find yourself interrupting somebody because you think they’re finished because there’s a delay or something. And that can be really hard.
Colin: Yes. One of the things you can do where you’re not sure is just take a pause. I often talk about a three second pause and it could be longer. So just count to three before you finished, before you speak. And you might find they speak again. But also, if you’re really paying attention, you actually know they haven’t finished. If you’re waiting to jump in, all you’re waiting for is a moment to jump in. You know, that breath, that pause, you’re in. I can talk now. Whereas if you really sit with them and look at them, you’ll notice, for example, their eyes are still moving. They’re still thinking, in which case there’s more going to come. And what’s so lovely is that the second wave of thinking, the third wave of thinking, is even more important, particularly to the photographer, particularly to the salesperson, particularly to the leader. And sometimes they say, you know, I’ve never told this to anyone. I’ve never had the courage to say this. And that tells you a lot about how well you are listening to them.
Marcus: I love that. I’ve got to say, also, Colin, I’m here listening away and your voice draws you in so much. It’s not a one-way process, isn’t it? It’s a two-way process as well. The way that you’re talking really draws me in.
Colin: Thank you. That coming from someone like yourself who’s on the other side of this, I’d really appreciate that.
Marcus: My pleasure. Colin, maybe you can just talk to us a little bit about non-verbal communication. You sort of have touched on it in talking about eye contact, etc. Does that play a key part in conversation, especially in sales, non-verbal communication?
Colin: There’s a lovely TED talk by a lady called Chelsea Heidley. She talks about 10 ways to have a better conversation. She said all of this stuff about nodding and aha and mmm and all of that just to show you’re listening, she said it’s just rubbish. If you’re with someone who’s really paying you attention, you know it. That’s it. But if we take that, that’s the end of it. But if you go back from that, all the non-verbals is such a good question. Because the verbal things like looking at them, the verbal things of facing them, eye contact, all of those things are really important. But what’s underneath that, it’s like the iceberg. That’s the tip of the iceberg. Underneath the iceberg is what you are intending for them as the listener.
So I intend to be curious, to be interested, to be encouraging, to see the person in front of me as an equal thinker, as an equal person, to see that person in front of me as a human being. All of these things, it sounds a weird thing to say, almost ooze out of you as they are talking. You’re not saying anything, but it oozes out of you through your intention to do so. I know it sounds strange, but trust me, that works. Because you know when someone’s not interested, you know when someone is interested. It’s different. It feels different. I may not be able to articulate what it is, but I know it’s different.
Marcus: Brilliant. Brilliant answer. Thank you.
Colin: Pleasure.
Sam: That’s interesting. And then I’ve been thinking, this is all really interesting stuff. As a photographer, one of the things people have to do in some situations is get across, you were saying that you almost ooze it, but they have to get across very quickly, but they’re listening, that they’re trying to build rapport. For some customers, they’ve got a long time. They can start to have those longer conversations. For others, it is quite quick for me, and Marcus was saying, you’ve got company headshots, and you’re doing one person every 15 minutes.
Colin: I think the biggest thing that photographers could do is to settle themselves before they arrive, to not be in a hurry themselves. And not just the physical, I’ve only got 10 minutes, but actually I’m at ease with that time. Whatever it is, I’m at ease with it, because that shows that you’re confident. It shows that you’re okay with where they’re at. And the important thing is to meet them where they’re at. And it might be that that person, when you arrive, you’re calm and present. They’re all over the place. In which case, yeah? In which case, listening to them. So what’s going on for you now? Where are you now? What would be best for you to know? And it might be that they say, well, it’s a wedding, I’ve got to do this and that. And you know, as a photographer, it’s far more than it’s just a wedding. There’s a lot going to be happening. And so how do you, you might want to settle, help them settle by the way you arrive. So you talked, Marcus talked about my voice and about how it draws you in. You can also settle people. So if one person can settle, the photographer can settle the other person. You can ask them questions. Be right from the word, go, so how are you today? And actually mean it. And when they tell you how they are, they might say, well, I’m just fine. And you go, really fine? You’ve got a wedding coming up. You must be excited or something. And they go, yeah, but it’s busy, busy, busy. Yeah, I can imagine. Tell them more. They go, well, this is going on. This is going on. Oh, and when they say something like, you know, catering, the catering’s a nightmare. All you need to say is catering with a question and they’ll tell you some more about the catering. And so you’re interested in them and it shows you’re interested in them. And they, people value that. There’s something about when you’re a very good listener, people like you and love you and trust you. And the strange thing is what you’ve done is just listen. I know it sounds just, I hate putting the just in there, but the listening is such an important part of it. And we don’t see it as well. I don’t think it’s valued as much as it really is.
Marcus: Yeah, I was just going to start wrapping up, Sam, by saying, you know, we’ve talked about listening quite a lot. I think the information that Colin’s given us and how to really listen, how to deep listen on another level is so crucial, not just for business, but just for so many aspects of your life.
Colin: Yes.
Sam: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things I’m really taking away is that, like you just said, that the way you turn up, you know, the way just you appear. So if we take the photography example, but there are so many. Yes. Does the photographer wash in, put his stuff down and go, right, where are we going? We’ve got 10 minutes or are they all in their arm and they’re listening?
Colin: Yeah.
Sam: And it’s very different, isn’t it?
Colin: It is even just the words you’ve said, the way you said it. I had in my mind this person running and go, right, come on, we’ve got to do this. We’ve got to do this. Rather than the other one who arrives and says, right, I look the part, I’ve got my stuff. I’m in control. That’s what they want. They want reassurance. OK. Where are we at? What sort of I understand this is a wedding. Tell me about the tell me about the wedding. I’m interested. You know, we can convey that clear message that we’re interested in them. But we got to arrive first and then those simple things like, you know, wait three seconds or and what more people will tell you what more they’re excited. It’s a wedding. It’s a birthday. It says whatever it is, they want to tell you these things. And so they want to be heard. And so we owe it to them to be heard. Once we’ve been once they’ve been heard, they’re going to listen to our experience. Because as I said earlier, we’ve done hundreds of weddings, hundreds of birthdays or whatever. This is not new to us, but we don’t need to be so blase. This is going to be special for you on making sure of that. And I can give you one one interest in one example. Yeah, one quick example. So I got married last year and we went to the registry office first on the Saturday and then we got married what we call married properly on the Sunday. And for us, it was just my wife and I, a friend and then two people who were going to be witnesses. That was it. And we just told them that. But the woman there listened to us and listened and said, OK, fine. Well, I’m going to make this special for you. And she really did because she knew what to do. We trusted her and both of us were moved by the way she made it special for us.
Marcus: Quite lovely.
Sam: Yeah, that’s been really interesting, Colin. There is so much for us to think about. Often we kind of wrap up, but I’m not sure we can wrap up. You kind of have to listen to it all, really. Yes, so much for sitting in business, in life. It is amazing. So I am sure lots of listeners will want to hear more. So how can our listeners get hold of you if they want to, Colin?
Colin: I have a website which is dexteritysolutions.co.uk and I can also give you my telephone number and call me on that if you want, which is 07939 013651. And you can look me up on LinkedIn or known as The Listener and it’s Colin D Smith.
Sam: Amazing. I will put all of the links for all of those in the show notes so you just read those and they will be there. I think your phone number maybe should be like the listening line and people can follow.
Colin: That would be good.
Sam: We are now on YouTube. So if you really want to, you can come and watch us. So yes, head over to the new YouTube channel. The link will be in the show notes. Come and follow and you can get all of the new shows on video in the car as well as listening.
Marcus: Thank you. Nice one, Colin. Well, that was a great show, wasn’t it?
Colin: Yeah, I enjoyed it. Thank you.
Marcus: And Sam. Thank you very much, Sam. See you in the next one, Sam.
Sam: Yep. We’ll see you next time. Thanks so much, Colin. Thank you, everyone. And we’ll see you next time.
