The Invisible Ceiling: Most photographers argue about gear, but the most successful creators are arguing about philosophy. Marcus and Sam tackle the ten “hot buttons” that determine whether you are a high-value asset or a disposable vendor.
The “Invisible” Photographer: Why failing to show your own face in your marketing is the #1 way to kill your credibility and your Pricing for photographers.
The Revenue Leak: The simple licensing “safety net” you need to stop clients from using your work on global platforms without paying you a penny.
The Copycat Trap: How to break away from the “formulaic” imagery that is currently devaluing the industry and start creating work that justifies a premium price
01:22.49
Sam Hollis
Hello, Marcus. How are you doing?
01:24.38
Marcus Ahmad
I am very well, Sam. How’s yourself?
01:26.97
Sam Hollis
Excellent, excellent. And what are you going to be talking to us about today, Marcus?
01:31.13
Marcus Ahmad
Well, um as it’s the AR… Sorry, I can’t believe I got it wrong. It’s cut… Well, as it’s the branding season, I thought that maybe this is a good opportunity to use the AI and find out 10 topics that branding photographers are always arguing about.
01:53.99
Marcus Ahmad
So, yeah.
01:54.57
Sam Hollis
Excellent. And that’s a good segue between the seasons because you’ve used what you’ve learned in the AI season and you’re applying it to the branding season.
01:58.26
Marcus Ahmad
Ah.
02:00.53
Sam Hollis
I like it, Marcus.
02:01.85
Marcus Ahmad
Thank you, Sam. Thanks for noticing. And ah well, there’s another thing that I’ve noticed, and that is about branding photographers and that we don’t really argue about camera settings per se.
02:12.33
Marcus Ahmad
But what we do argue about is how to do the job. You know, the approach.
02:16.64
Sam Hollis
Ah, yeah.
02:17.43
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah, the positioning and the philosophy behind it. And if you spend any time with branding photographers, either on workshops or online in forums, the same debate seemed to come up again and again. So I thought I’d run for a set of those, um you know, not to answer them fully. I can’t do that. But just to maybe just get the ball rolling. And I’d love for some of your input on this as well, Sam.
02:40.06
Sam Hollis
Yeah, brilliant. And then listeners as well, your input, get onto the Facebook group, put some your thoughts on that.
02:44.02
Marcus Ahmad
Yes, yes.
02:45.50
Sam Hollis
We’d love to hear.
02:46.67
Marcus Ahmad
That’s perfect, Sam. Exactly right. So the first one is a bit, you know, we’ve heard this question a lot, but we just might maybe we can drill it down a bit more. And it is, should but brand photographers specialise or shoot everything? So normally we talk about should photographers shoot everything. Let’s just, Sam, narrow it down to brand photographers and talk about what brand photographers shoot.
03:08.95
Sam Hollis
So we’re saying you’ve niched a brand photography, should you niche further?
03:13.72
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah, exactly. And I guess ah a good way to put it, I think, is to say, if you’re doing brand photography, anything in the B2B, the business-to-business sphere is okay. It tickses to ticks the boxes for me anyhow. So, you know, I’m talking about doing photographing events, doing headshots and doing commercial work, you know, not just for personal brand, but for branding for big companies.
03:43.51
Sam Hollis
Okay, and But do you think in terms of pricing and things, do you think that niching further down helps in terms of kind of your exclusivity and your ability to charge higher prices?
03:54.78
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah, i that’s a good question. When I first started out doing branding photography about five years ago, Sam, I really, really nailed it down um to basically working with branding photography and working with coaches and motivational speakers.
04:10.82
Marcus Ahmad
And the reason I did that was at that time, I was doing a lot of online network networking.
04:11.27
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
04:16.98
Marcus Ahmad
It was the time of COVID.
04:17.24
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
04:18.70
Marcus Ahmad
So I thought that was a really easy way just for people to remember me.
04:18.84
Sam Hollis
Yeah. yeah
04:23.55
Marcus Ahmad
You know that, you know, when they say you do networking, it’s just, you know, really don’t talk to the people in the room, talk to their diaries or whatever, talk to the people they know.
04:30.84
Sam Hollis
Right.
04:32.15
Marcus Ahmad
So I really nailed it down to just working with those two two types of people, coaches, which is obviously very popular at that time, and vote motivational speakers.
04:42.58
Marcus Ahmad
Since then, I have branched out, and then I branched out into doing commercial work, more commercial companies, working in marketing departments and doing you know bigger campaigns for them, and then more even more recently doing events.
04:52.82
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
04:57.27
Sam Hollis
Okay.
04:57.69
Marcus Ahmad
and and we And we talked about that. So za I’m still working in the B2B sphere, but my but but I have broadened my speciality.
05:06.69
Sam Hollis
Yeah. Okay.
05:08.57
Marcus Ahmad
So that’s what that’s what I do. And again, we’d love to hear what our listeners, what they think about that. Okay, ah this next one is a bit of a weird question. I’m not quite sure did people debate this, but let’s just put it out there. Should brand photographers show their own face in their marketing?
05:31.22
Sam Hollis
Why not? Hang on, we have a dog-growning moment.
05:33.55
Marcus Ahmad
Oh, a dog dog growling. Is that a…
05:36.15
Sam Hollis
Go on, Winslet, out you go.
05:40.73
Marcus Ahmad
oh that’s a big bark.
05:42.98
Sam Hollis
Labrador.
05:43.93
Marcus Ahmad
low Lab, yeah, that sounds like a lab. Yeah, so um do you need, okay, I guess what the question is, do brand photographers need a strong personal brand themselves? That’s the question, isn’t it?
05:54.63
Sam Hollis
Yeah. I mean, is that not a fairly obvious one? I mean, surely they do.
05:59.50
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah, yeah.
06:01.17
Sam Hollis
Surely you’ve got to practice what you preach.
06:03.13
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah, exactly, Sam. I totally agree with that. And to the nth degree, I’ve talked about it on, ah we’ve talked about it on the show about how to brand yourself.
06:09.97
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
06:10.85
Marcus Ahmad
And you know me, I am branding, branding, branding all the way. I use my own colors, purple for my branding. i use, I wear that when I’m doing events or shooting.
06:21.91
Marcus Ahmad
I do it all the way. I’m really trying brand myself.
06:23.43
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
06:24.64
Marcus Ahmad
I mean, that’s what people look when they go to your your website or wherever. That’s what they’re looking for, isn’t it?
06:29.19
Sam Hollis
That’s it. they were yeah They want to see example almost examples of your work. And so you you are showing your own brand is part of an example of your work. That’s not separate from your portfolio, is it really?
06:39.45
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah, yeah.
06:39.62
Sam Hollis
It’s almost part of it. Even if actually that photo isn’t necessarily yours, it’s still curated by you.
06:41.08
Marcus Ahmad
It is part of your portfolio.
06:45.94
Sam Hollis
So it’s kind of part of that collection.
06:46.46
Marcus Ahmad
Exactly. Exactly right. Still curated by you, exactly. You know, obviously… You’ve got people there who might be a little bit more retiring or whatever. They might find it difficult, but I think you’ve really got to overcome that. If you’re going photograph people, you’ve got to be used to being photographed yourself. And then that gives you a great opportunity to feel what it’s like to build up your own brand and be photographed.
07:09.95
Sam Hollis
That’s it. And if you are more shy, you don’t have to doing those Facebook Lives and LinkedIn Lives and stuff that you might not like to. But I think, yeah, everybody will have to go as far as getting their photo taken.
07:21.14
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah, exactly. Okay, question number three, or debate number three. So are branding suits becoming too formulaic? um So you can see where we’re going to go with this one.
07:33.30
Marcus Ahmad
There’s a growing criticism that branding photography often looks the same, and it’s those three Cs that I’ve talked about before, the three Cs.
07:34.14
Sam Hollis
So.
07:39.58
Sam Hollis
I was going to say you’re going to do the the is it the coffee cup, the computer, and the…
07:42.19
Marcus Ahmad
Three Cs.
07:44.86
Sam Hollis
How does a phone be a C? But anyway.
07:47.54
Marcus Ahmad
A cell phone, cell phone, cell phone or champagne flute was another one that you could you could have had Yeah.
07:49.50
Sam Hollis
Ah, there we go.
07:52.98
Sam Hollis
yeah.
07:54.34
Marcus Ahmad
And i I definitely think that, there look you know, in the history of branding photography, which is relatively short, there is a lot of that type of stuff. I’ve saw a lot of people with laptops and coffee cups myself, but I am now, over the last couple of years, I’ve really moved away from that.
08:10.02
Marcus Ahmad
And I think the market is embracing that.
08:12.82
Sam Hollis
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
08:16.06
Marcus Ahmad
um You know, I mean, it’s a question of how you ah move away from that. And that may be, you know, that’s all about ideas and how you come up with ideas, et cetera, et cetera. But ah ah it’s not easy.
08:28.82
Marcus Ahmad
Let me just say it’s not easy. it’s very it’s It’s easy to fall into that trap of the three Cs.
08:33.60
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
08:34.49
Marcus Ahmad
And it does take quite a lot of visual knowledge to sort of escape that. it’s It’s knowing your client, but also knowing how you can interpret what they do, you know, and it’s all about little signifiers, little details that give the story, the visual narrative away.
08:52.12
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
08:54.39
Marcus Ahmad
um Okay, yeah so… fine okay Now, this is interesting one, Sam, and I’d like to get your thoughts on this one. is
09:03.51
Sam Hollis
Okay.
09:04.73
Marcus Ahmad
And it’s a tricky one. ah Should brand photographers charge commercial licensing?
09:13.37
Sam Hollis
So as in for use of the photos.
09:15.77
Marcus Ahmad
Exactly, Sam. So, um you know, some people, I mean… Advertising, in the world of advertising, a commercial license is a is what is done.
09:27.48
Marcus Ahmad
That is exactly what is expected and that’s what people do.
09:28.28
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
09:30.28
Marcus Ahmad
And a commercial license is basically, restrict or you have to it’s restricting the usage of an image. So the license might be, okay, you might get a worldwide image,
09:37.46
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
09:41.05
Marcus Ahmad
to use the image worldwide or the license might be to use in Europe. It might be to use it on websites. It might be to use it on social media. It might be use on a TV ad. It might be a two-year license.
09:52.57
Marcus Ahmad
It might be a three-year license.
09:54.01
Sam Hollis
Yeah, so there’s all sorts of variations.
09:54.37
Marcus Ahmad
That is, yes, lots and lots of variations. And it does get very complicated. And that’s basically, I think, traditionally why you get an agent will be involved in this. I think if anybody’s got an agent, they’re goingnna be there’s to be no debate at this question.
10:08.15
Sam Hollis
b Yeah. But most people don’t. So I’ve got a couple of thoughts on this. The first one is you could just have an absolutely standard one that you just apply across the board. And this is this is kind of what you give to everybody.
10:19.88
Sam Hollis
And then, you know, there might be the odd client that’s different, but you just have something pre-written. That’s my that’s the right to use it. the other thing The other thing, from my point of view, is probably…
10:26.84
Marcus Ahmad
but it’s not the it’s the right’s not the so um It’s not the right to use it it’s so much as the you have to pay more to use it outside that right.
10:32.70
Sam Hollis
Yes, to use it in other circumstances. Yeah, so which is, yeah, you said that’s your rights and you go outside it, you pay.
10:35.22
Marcus Ahmad
Yes.
10:37.85
Marcus Ahmad
Yes. Yeah.
10:38.87
Sam Hollis
um You come back and pay. The other thought for me, it depends on the client. So if you’re doing a brand ch shoot for a local business, you know, a local business coach, a local accounting firm,
10:49.06
Marcus Ahmad
Yes.
10:51.86
Sam Hollis
the chance of that photo then being used on an international billboard is so minimal that I’d have thought the licensing is not something you need to worry about.
10:53.27
Marcus Ahmad
yes
10:59.06
Sam Hollis
Well, if you’re working for a slightly bigger business, maybe you’re working for a business local to you, but they’re part of a bigger group, then it’s possible stuff could go up the food chain or you’re working for a bigger client and then the licensing needs to come in.
11:11.96
Sam Hollis
But I’d have thought it surely to do with the the client and I would have thought for, you know, smaller businesses, you could just say that you can use it because you can’t really see it ended enough on billboards all over the world.
11:21.62
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah, yeah. I think it’s exactly right, Sam. um I think when a person when you’re doing personal branding, especially here in the UK, it’s unlikely that it’s going to be used further than a website or social media.
11:36.08
Marcus Ahmad
i You know, traveling around America, well, I think they’re much more focused on this kind of ah licensing. But traveling around America, I do see billboards ah that do feature like a estate agents or dentists or more personal brands because that’s very much part of their, they what what would you call it?
11:50.24
Sam Hollis
Yep. Yay. ya
11:56.78
Marcus Ahmad
Their, I don’t know, their culture.
11:57.05
Sam Hollis
Culture. Yes. well Well, we drive past and we cringe, don’t we?
11:58.53
Marcus Ahmad
Thank you. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
12:00.49
Sam Hollis
We’re in America and we look at it and you just as ah as a Brit, you cringe and you go out.
12:04.34
Marcus Ahmad
yes
12:04.89
Sam Hollis
Yeah. ah But you could just also, to cover yourself, have a bog standard license that is whatever you decide. You know, this can be used in the UK on websites, on social media, whatever. But you have a license that basically isn’t restrictive for most small business, for most businesses you’re working with.
12:20.13
Sam Hollis
But if they do suddenly go big and they want to use it, you’ve protected yourself. They need to pay more to use it further.
12:26.20
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah. I mean, it for me, i you know went to I look at some of my LinkedIn ah clients, my linked on the LinkedIn profiles are some of some the clients I’ve worked with, and I look at their headshots that I might have shot five years ago, and they’re still using that same headshot.
12:42.21
Marcus Ahmad
I think, God, if I had a license in that, I could blame you charging for using it. After two years or whatever, I’d be rich.
12:47.67
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
12:48.57
Marcus Ahmad
ah But yeah, no, i don’t i’m i’m I’m with you on that one, Sam. I don’t do licensing. And if I did if i if i do come up to a situation where I’m doing a big campaign, I bring on board an agent.
13:00.12
Marcus Ahmad
And there are agents who who would be willing to take you one on a one-off basis.
13:02.42
Sam Hollis
Okay. yeah. yeah Okay, excellent. We might need to move through some of the others a little bit quicker, Marcus.
13:06.90
Marcus Ahmad
Okay.
13:07.33
Sam Hollis
We’ve got a few quick fire ones.
13:07.66
Marcus Ahmad
Well, I can…
13:10.87
Marcus Ahmad
Okay, let’s quick fire them. you’re You’re right. Okay. So are brand photographers actually photographers or visual strategists? Well, look at this. You know, yeah. I mean, that’s an easy one to answer. Back in the day, you were photographers. Nowadays, you are definitely a visual strategist. What you think, Sam?
13:27.03
Sam Hollis
Well, both. I mean, they are photographers too. I I’d have thought both.
13:29.43
Marcus Ahmad
Yes. Yeah. Commercially, though. But but with the B2B, yeah. Yeah. It’s ah yeah a bit of both. Okay. Let’s go with a bit of both. ah Now, but but brand mom bearing in mind we’re talking about personal branding, is social media helping or hurting brand photography?
13:46.59
Marcus Ahmad
Sam, I’m going to put that one over to you.
13:49.17
Sam Hollis
surely helping us. It’s creating a massive demand for the need for images.
13:50.55
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah. Hmm.
13:52.57
Sam Hollis
And there is people using phones and stuff, but that’s more linked to phones than social media. Surely phones, surely social media is driving demand for images.
14:00.79
Marcus Ahmad
Exactly. That’s where personal branding started. The growth in personal branding has been because of social media and the growth of websites, as you well know, Sam. And that’s why this whole personal brand has come up.
14:09.98
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
14:13.63
Marcus Ahmad
before but you know Before the websites, i don’t though people weren’t solopreneurs. It wasn’t so such a popular thing to do. Really, it’s only since post-COVID there’s been a bigger demand, a bigger growth, sorry, in… um the need for personal brand and so the solopreneur.
14:33.29
Marcus Ahmad
That’s my statement on that. Okay, here we go. Number seven, our personal brand suits too polished? Gosh, that’s so funny. Would people argue about that? look
14:44.79
Sam Hollis
depends on them. I’ve seen some that look over polished and some that are very rough and ready and some in between.
14:45.52
Marcus Ahmad
Our line’s not. Yeah.
14:50.20
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah, I mean, wedding photography has gone through a process and might be we might be able to draw comparisons with that, has gone through a process where initially it was very polished um and was done by a few people and it wasn’t really that popular.
15:01.05
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
15:06.48
Marcus Ahmad
Nowadays, that um wedding photography has gone much more down the documentary route. It’s more inclusive.
15:11.39
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
15:12.77
Marcus Ahmad
You’re shooting, you know, all the fun or the drama as well as the group shots. And maybe that’s the way personal branding will go. It’s going to be maybe it’s not just going to about bringing out the big old lights and doing in the studio in the future.
15:26.26
Marcus Ahmad
It might be about doing it on your phone even, Sam.
15:30.33
Sam Hollis
Yeah, so you think we’re at the stage of brand photography or effectively with a person at the front going, right, I need the mother of the bride and all the uncles of the bride. and that’s Getting those big groups done. We haven’t moved on to the capturing the fun.
15:39.99
Marcus Ahmad
Well, you know, that, yeah, I mean, that does still go on, really. But the wedding photographers, I think we can learn some from them and how that that they’ve transitioned and made it more documentary-type thing.
15:52.63
Marcus Ahmad
Right, come up to the end, how we’re doing time-wise. Okay, you don’t need expensive gear to be a successful brand photographer. Do people debate this?
16:04.46
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah.
16:04.34
Sam Hollis
you Yes and no. I mean, yeah you can’t really turn up with a you can’t really turn up with a phone, can you or really you know an automatic camera.
16:06.33
Marcus Ahmad
It does come off that last question.
16:13.62
Marcus Ahmad
No. And it does sort of come off the last question. I think, you know, you do need expensive gear, especially in this country. You need lights, really, whether you’re shooting inside or outside. um People love those really…
16:27.46
Marcus Ahmad
Blurry background, so you need fast lenses to do that. You know, quality does matter to a degree. But at the same time, if in in the same time, Sam, in the future, we might be moving towards more phones.
16:35.16
Sam Hollis
But it’s yeah, and then if you you’re thinking, yeah. Yeah.
16:42.18
Marcus Ahmad
You know, I do use a phone occasionally.
16:42.97
Sam Hollis
yeah
16:44.30
Marcus Ahmad
I do whip out my iPhone and do use it on shoots these days.
16:47.58
Sam Hollis
and that But then also, if you if you’re talking about an slr you know, mirrorless, there’s a massive range of body costs. You know, and if we’re saying if you’re doing brand photography and actually doing it for a business that’s mainly wanting the photographs for the website and for social, you don’t need the top of the range ones because it’s not going on a billboard, you know.
17:03.83
Marcus Ahmad
No, that’s right. That is right.
17:04.76
Sam Hollis
um So there is a range within that. Yes, you do need kind of a decent camera, need some lenses. But to do that sort of thing, I don’t think you need the, you know, the crazy top end stuff.
17:15.64
Marcus Ahmad
You don’t Sam. And just as an the aside, ah you can get a full frame really high spec camera from about three or four years ago with a 50mm 1.4, 1.8 lens.
17:26.26
Marcus Ahmad
You can get that for 600 quid these days, which is not a lot of income.
17:28.62
Sam Hollis
And that would be, and that with maybe a light would be, you could start with that, couldn’t you?
17:29.75
Marcus Ahmad
Yeah. Yeah, enough. Exactly. And of course, that’s just a little segue into a show coming up where we will be debating the merits of the DSLR versus the mirrorless camera.
17:42.44
Marcus Ahmad
Okay, we’ve got two questions left, Sam. You can decide which one we’re going to do.
17:46.07
Sam Hollis
Okay.
17:46.92
Marcus Ahmad
Is it better…
17:47.11
Sam Hollis
We’ll go both. It’s fine.
17:48.76
Marcus Ahmad
are you sure? Okay. Okay. Well, here we go. Is it better to shoot fast and efficiently or slow and considered? Well, that’s definitely one for me. I’m a fashion background. I shoot fast. Bang, bang, bang. I love it. The reason I do that is not just because it gives me lots of images. In fact, that’s not the reason at all. The reason I don’t do it is because it gives a great vibe to the shoot and the clients get very excited and they get very, oh, this is really good fun. That’s the way I do it. If I’m doing a campaign where I’m using professional models, I shoot very slowly. I tether my camera up and I do it. I’m very considered and I work with a client and we do maybe one shot a day.
18:29.27
Marcus Ahmad
So that’s that one, Sam.
18:29.43
Sam Hollis
Wow. Okay. So it kind of does it also partly possibly depend on the photographer’s kind of personality? You know, for some people that kind of fast shoot is just not them and it would feel forced.
18:38.94
Marcus Ahmad
m Yeah. Yeah, well, guess what kind of personality?
18:42.17
Sam Hollis
And equally the reverse.
18:43.05
Marcus Ahmad
yeah Guess what kind of personality I’ve got. You can tell by the way I talk.
18:45.90
Sam Hollis
No
18:47.32
Marcus Ahmad
you know I’m not slow and considered. I’m fast in effect ah fast and efficient.
18:52.42
Sam Hollis
comment.
18:53.73
Marcus Ahmad
fisher I’m not quite sure about that. Okay, last one. Here we go. Here we go.
18:56.15
Sam Hollis
No comment.
18:58.63
Marcus Ahmad
photographers too safe? Are photographers too safe? Are we playing it too easy? I mean, I guess we’ve talked a little bit that already.
19:08.31
Sam Hollis
I guess it’s always difficult with commercial work how edgy you go, isn’t it?
19:08.78
Marcus Ahmad
photographers too safe?
19:11.95
Sam Hollis
Because you are being paid for it. Like when you get creative, and we were talking the other day Fabrizio in the show, and she was saying you must have your own personal projects, and that can be really quite edgy and stuff.
19:19.24
Marcus Ahmad
Thank you.
19:20.75
Sam Hollis
But it is difficult with commercial work as to how edgy you could go, isn’t it?
19:25.88
Marcus Ahmad
yeah Yeah, it is. I mean, you know, it’s hard even to get a black and white image in there, you know, ah sometimes. Sure. And you have to make people look good. That is part of the job of doing personal branding is making people look good.
19:37.20
Sam Hollis
Yeah.
19:38.32
Marcus Ahmad
So you can’t use a too contrasty light. So, yeah, you have you you play with the norms and you’ve got you’ve got to make people feel relaxed. So, yes, I think maybe we do play it a bit safer. It’s part of the genre.
19:49.50
Marcus Ahmad
Okay, let’s go with that. just
19:51.35
Sam Hollis
Well, I think that was a lot to go through, Marcus.
19:53.37
Marcus Ahmad
Thank you, Sam. just ah Just before we do finish up, on that licensing we were talking about earlier, we did do an earlier show going way back by with Christine Saunders. I don’t if you remember that one, Sam.
20:04.25
Sam Hollis
Yep.
20:04.57
Marcus Ahmad
And we talked extensively there about licensing and that kind of thing.
20:04.76
Sam Hollis
Yeah, I do.
20:08.82
Sam Hollis
There we go. So go back and listen to that. And otherwise, Marcus, I will see you next week.
20:15.13
Marcus Ahmad
See you next week, Sam.
20:16.41
Sam Hollis
Take care.
