“Show Notes”
This is the 100th episode of the show with Jeff Brown, Zoe Hiljemark, Gillian Devine and Martin Hobby. All our guests have been on other shows and you can listen to them here:
• Using Linkedin to its full potential as a photographer with Jeff Brown
• Jeff Brown, Photography mentor
• Guest Interview with Zoe Hiljemark
• How to not leave “money on the table” with Gillian Devine
• Guest Interview with Gillian Devine
• Guest Interview with Martin Hobby
Here are a few of the people you might want to check out, that our guests recommend:
• Christian Huber (Photographer)
• Denise Duffield Thomas, author of Get Rich Lucky Bitch
• Jeff Brown’s travel book
• Simon Marsden, Phantoms of the Isles,
• I am Malala written by Malala Yousafzai
• Martin Parr
• Perrin Adams (podcast host)
• Uber Suggest (SEO tool)
• Elspeth Vincent (photographer)
• Ella CRM
The show covered a wide range of topics including Al, and how it can help and cause problems for photographers.
The guests also looked at the equipment and the directions for the entrance. Photographers needing to include video as part of branding photography was discussed.
Where marketing is going was another area that the guests investigated. Investing into platforms you own such as your website and email list was seen as a growth area as getting reach on social media is getting more challenging. Pricing was also a topic for discussion and the need to not have our price low. The group also discussed when to do a free photoshoot, and what to make sure you get out of it.
“Show Transcription”
Sam: Hello Marcus, how are you doing?
Marcus: Oh Sam, I am very well, but also as you can probably imagine, very, very excited, very excited. Sam, tell the viewers why I’m so excited.
Sam: So it is the 100th show, we have a room full of people, normally when there’s Marcus and I, Marcus and I, one or two people, it’s like, it’s rammed in here. I might get awkward in it by the end, but with the guests I’m not sure we will at all.
Marcus: Yeah, I did try to pen a song specially for the occasion, but I couldn’t think of anything that would rhyme with 100.
Sam: Can you think of anything? 100.
Marcus: I really couldn’t think of anything. Now everybody’s thinking, okay, anyhow, okay, without further ado, I’m going to introduce the guests very briefly and then we’re actually going to ask them four things, four questions we’ve already prepped them with. One is, your favourite photographer, okay, that was my question, but who’s your favourite photographer? Who do you admire? Could be anybody. What’s your favourite marketing tool? Guess whose question that was, and how did you help the last person you worked with? Okay, so with that in mind, I’m going to first of all go over to Gillian Devine, the branding photographer excellent, and also a mentor to the stars. I don’t know why I said that, but there you go. Gillian, good morning.
Gillian: Good morning. My mentees are stars.
Marcus: They are, right, that’s right, exactly.
Gillian: The photographers I mentor are absolute stars in my eyes, so thank you, Marcus, and can I just say you absolutely struck fear into my heart then at the thought of us lot singing. We would absolutely empty the room with a song for you winding me on.
Marcus: I think we should go for Eurovision. I think we’d be perfect.
Gillian: I love that, but no, thank you for the intro and it’s wonderful to be here on this very special podcast, so shall I plough through the questions?
Marcus: Go for it, Gillian, what do you think?
Gillian: Fantastic. Okay, so my favourite photographer—that does change quite regularly, I’m not going to lie. At the minute, I’m looking at a great Norwegian landscape photographer called Christian Hoberg, and the reason he came into my sight was that he created a beautiful series of very whimsical landscape images that he took in the northern Spain forest. They’re so stunning, and I’ve only come across them in the last couple of months, but I’m absolutely in love, so definitely check him out. I think I like him as well because his work’s very different from mine. Obviously, I’m a brands and business photographer, so his work is very, very different from mine.
Sam: These are like quickfire questions, just as a little hint.
Gillian: Okay, someone I admire—I’m going to channel Snoop Dogg. I admire him, but have you ever seen his acceptance speech where he says, “I’m going to thank me. I’m going to thank me for getting over my problems”? So, first off, I’m going to say thank you to me—I admire me. But I also admire Denise Duffield-Thomas, who is the author of Get Rich, Lucky Bitch—a fabulous book to grab, all about money mindset. Favourite marketing tool? I’m going to go along the same lines—me. I am the best marketing tool for my brands and the marketing of my business. There are so many tools out there, but none of them are going to work if I don’t work—if I don’t project what I need to project for my business and brands. So, I am my favourite marketing tool. And then the last question—how did I help my last client? My last client in my mentoring business was a fabulous photographer called Mary, and my last brand photography client was an amazing mindset coach called Kia. I helped them both in the same way—I helped them make more money in their business.
Marcus: Oh, lovely, lovely, lovely. Thank you very much, Gillian. We have another mentor, and this time, this mentor is a star himself. He’s got the biggest LinkedIn collection I know—connections, I know—and an astounding figure. Who am I talking about? I’m talking about Jeff Brown. Good morning, Jeff!
Jeff : Hello, hello!
Marcus: Could you do that in a camper, please? How you doing, mate? All right.
Jeff: Very good, very good, thank you.
Marcus: So, Jeff, have you got the answers to our little questions? A little icebreaker—who’s your favourite photographer?
Jeff: So, yeah, mine changes quite a lot—a bit like what Gillian just said—and not necessarily professional photographers, just people who entertain us on Facebook with really nice images. I do love travel, I do love adventure, so, you know, people who do adventure stories and stuff.
Marcus: But you’re not going to plug your new book here, Jeff? I’m not! This is not a lead-up to plugging your new travel book, is it, Jeff?
Jeff: It’s coming out about Northumberland—I only got it yesterday. It looks great! But my first photographer I really got into when I was really getting into photography, back in like the 1990s, was a guy called Simon Marsden, who published a book called Phantom of the Isles, which you can still get—I just researched it. It was all about the haunted and mysterious places throughout the British Isles, but all photographed in infrared. And I was like, “Oh, wow!” You know? So, I did experiment with a bit of infrared photography.
Marcus: Okay.
Jeff: The other question—what was the other one? Favourite marketing tools?
Sam: Yeah, someone you admire?
Jeff: Somebody I admire? I think there are a lot of people. I listen to a load of audiobooks—I’ve probably got about 400 audiobooks in my collection—and I love listening to people’s stories. They’re stories of success, failure, success, failure, and how they ride the journey. I’m currently listening to a book called I Am Malala, which is about the girl who won the Nobel Peace Prize for getting schoolgirls to go to school against the Taliban. So that’s really fantastic.
Sam: Yeah, favourite marketing tool, and how do you help your last client?
Jeff: There were two favourite marketing tools. The first one is definitely publishing your first book—I’ve now got five books out there. It’s the best thing you can do for your own personal brand.
Marcus: We’re all nodding sagely here, by the way.
Jeff: So much visibility, so much opportunity—you know, I make more money from opportunities coming because of my book than I do in physical book sales. And then I’ve got to say LinkedIn, haven’t I? You know, because LinkedIn is the perfect place for opportunity. So, you know, create your first book. It doesn’t have to be about photography—it can be about your passion—and then get yourself on LinkedIn.
Sam: Perfect. And then, finally, how did you help your last client?
Jeff: I had a nice message last week from one of my clients, Samantha. She’s a boudoir photographer in Essex. When we first started together, she was getting rejections—people putting up barriers to spending 100 quid with her. Last week, she had her first £2,000 sale, and then she had another three big sales that week. She didn’t change her photography—her photography is still exactly the same. What she changed was her message and her brand.So, it’s her message and her brand that—Gillian and Zoe know this—make a huge, big difference. She already had the talent as a photographer—she just needed to find the right clients and get the message to those people.
Marcus: Excellent, excellent, excellent, excellent. Okay, so we can move on to Zoe Hills. Mark, by the way, all these people—if you want to hear more about them and what they do—they have all been top guests from our previous show, so do check them out. So, Zoe helps photographers with PR—she gets photographers noticed. I think we can say that—is that fair to say?
Zoe: That would be fair to say, Marcus, yes. Thank you, and thanks so much for having me on the show—thrilled to be here, of course, and thrilled for all of you and your guests. But yeah, absolutely—that’s what I help photographers with: getting visible, usually through the media. Publicity means features, press, etc., but also content and SEO. I’m a bit of a marketing geek all around, really. But to answer the question—so, I think in terms of my favourite photographer, there’s nothing more fascinating than people-watching, and I love the photographer Martin Parr because he is so well known for his British, really cultural photography that takes a snapshot of people just chilling on the beach, doing their everyday thing, and I find it so fascinating. He is, obviously, a huge name. I mean, he was big in the ’80s and ’90s and continues to be. I live down here on the South Coast, in Bournemouth, very near to Bournemouth Beach Resort, and he came here a couple of years ago with an exhibition. I just love his work—it’s a bit cheeky, it’s a bit satirical, and it absolutely captures people as they are. You know, real. There’s so much authenticity in the images and so much storytelling, and that’s what I love about his work.
Marcus: It sounds like you’re angling to be his new PR agent there, Zoe.
Zoe: It would be amazing—that would be super cool!
Sam: Somebody you admire, Zoe? Somebody I admire—well, I admire people who don’t claim to know everything, who are very receptive to learning and learning from others. I really admire a guy called Perrin Adams. He’s actually a Canadian host of a podcast that I was interviewed on called The Great Big Photography World Podcast. We had a great conversation—he’s really receptive to recommendations for the podcast, so I’ve been able to recommend my clients and other people to be interviewed by him. What he does is so supportive of photographers—he’s constantly sharing photography by other photographers on his platforms. He’s so engaging as an interviewer, he asks such insightful questions, and genuinely, I find his show really fascinating because you learn so much from his interviews. He’s a really good supporter of photographers, and I admire him—such a great connector.
Sam: Cool. Favourite marketing tool?
Zoe: Day in, day out, I’m using loads of different tools. Jeff and Gillian have both suggested some really good tools in their piece, but I’m literally going to go for a tool being Ubersuggest. It’s a tool I use pretty much daily in my business. Ubersuggest is an SEO tool where you can do keyword research. In my work, I help photographers with SEO copywriting and blogging, helping them get visible on Google and in search engines. But to do that effectively, you need to know what people are searching for. Now, there are loads of SEO tools out there, but I love Ubersuggest and highly recommend it to photographers because there is actually a free plan. It’s pretty limited, but even for a very small cost—£29 a month, I think—you can access the premium version, which allows you to tap into a whole wealth of information about what people are actually searching for on Google. That, in turn, can inform your SEO strategy and content going forward. So, I am pretty much never out of Ubersuggest in the work that I do. The results of that are that people can go away and create content—or work with me to actually get visible online. So yeah, I am super passionate about that and always recommend it.
Sam: That is amazing, and you know it’s a good recommendation when I can see everybody on the call, and nobody can get that.
Zoe: Yeah, get on it if you’re not already!
Sam: And then, how did you help your last client?
Zoe: Yeah, how I help my clients is by, as I said, building positive brand perception, awareness, and visibility. It was really cool this week, actually. I help them with email newsletters, content, blogging—you know, there’s all sorts of different ways I help people. But just this week, one of my clients, a really amazing wildlife photographer called David Lloyd, who I’ve worked with for a number of years now, and I do content together. I create email newsletters for him, and he told me that, off the back of one email we sent this week, he got three people booked onto his wildlife photography safaris in Amboseli. And they are not cheap, I’m telling you! That one email has generated, yeah, a lot of money—tens of thousands of pounds for him—through selling his wildlife safari tours. So, what I like to say is PR is about brand building and brand perception, but actually, it is directly linked back to the bottom line and to generating sales, which is obviously really exciting for me.
Sam: Cool, thank you, Zoe.
Marcus: Fantastic! Yeah, that’s a really good one. Okay, let’s move on to our last, but certainly not least, guest—because I’ve got a fellow photographer with me, someone to help me defend photography against all these marketing people. I’ve got Martin Hobby, whose photography is no longer a hobby for him. Yeah, yeah, I’m sure he’s heard that before. Martin is a corporate photographer specializing in headshots, and he also runs the very popular and very active Facebook group Corporate Photography UK. Martin, good morning.
Martin: Morning! Thank you for inviting me back—it’s good to be here. So, these quickfire questions—my favourite photographer at the moment is a young British photographer called Elspeth Vincent. I think she’s only been a photographer for two or three years, but her work, for me, in the corporate world just really stands out. She just uses on-camera flash for her headshots, corporate work, and portraits. I don’t know her directly, but I do follow her on her social channels, and she’s already had shoots with Snoop Dogg—his second mention on the podcast! I believe last weekend, she had a cover on one of the Sunday Glossy magazines as well. So yeah, she’s someone I really see becoming a big name in the photography world. She’s relatively new to the industry, and her work is pretty inspiring. The person who inspires me would be my son, Ollie, because he makes me want to be a better person—simple as that.
Marcus: Well, that’s work, isn’t it, Martin?
Martin: The marketing tool—other than LinkedIn, if we’re going down the route of a thing that I use—but thinking about this question, I have to sort of echo what Gillian said. It is me, because I’ve kind of restarted my business a few times. I’ve moved 200 miles and started in a new location, and it’s always been me that’s got myself known in the area where I want to be known. So yeah, that’s what I go for on that one.
Marcus: Nothing wrong with that.
Martin: What was the last question?
Marcus: We’ve got two—we’ve got the tool and we’ve got the How did you help your last client? That’s a little bit of a question for you, that one.
Martin: Yesterday, I was doing some headshots and some portraits, or pictures around the office, for a local mortgage broker. Not that they have a particularly high turnover of staff, but naturally, people do leave, and they get new staffers on board. So, as well as doing a group shot of everyone in situ, I also shot each of them individually. I’m going to create a group shot of them in Photoshop so that once they get new starters on board, or if people naturally leave the business, instead of me coming back and having to get everyone in the same place again—because a lot of them are based remotely—I can just photograph one person and add them to the group shot. So that’s how I built my business.
Marcus: That’s nice—I like that. That’s very succinct. Fantastic! Well, thank you, guys—thank you, everybody—and welcome to our 100th show! So, Sam, do you want to tell them what we’re going to be talking about? Do you want to go outside? Because I think I’ve talked quite a lot already.
Sam: So yeah, for the show, we’ve decided to go with the idea of talking about the future of photography. Where is it going? What are we going to be talking about in the 200th show, when you’re all back with us? When we’ve got the 200th show in two years, where is the photography industry going to be? What direction will it have taken? I’ve got some thoughts about what we’re talking about—I’m sure Marcus has—but I mean, you guys, we’ve prepped you slightly on this one. Now, have you already got some thoughts and ideas you want to lead out with on this one?
Marcus: Perfect. Okay, as you’re jumping in, we’re going to go straight to Jeff Brown. Jeff, come on—what do you think? In two years’ time, where are we going to be?
Jeff: Well, obviously, it’s a big debate, isn’t it? People are talking about AI and the future of photography with AI and stuff like that. And I think, yes, there will be certain elements of photography that will be enhanced by AI, but also replaced by AI. For example, I remember seeing at the BIPP’s last AGM, there was a guy who worked for a big in-house photography studio. He said that basically, what they have now is they photograph a dress on a particular model—like a mannequin—and then that dress is simulated on an AI-generated person. So, for example, they’ll generate a Chinese person, a Black person, an English white person, all wearing that dress. So maybe the likes of fast fashion will revert to AI for their high-turnover content when they have 20,000–30,000 images to produce. But when you look at brands like Barbour, for instance—or, you know, I love my Belstaff jackets—Belstaff, when they have limited small ranges, they want to create content that has real people. It has that real authenticity—it’s not something that’s turned around quickly. So I think there will still be a big value in real photography. And then ultimately—do you want an AI-generated wedding? Do you want an AI-generated family portrait? Anything involving human interaction—that’s always going to be around. There’s always going to be a demand for that emotional side of things. I think, yes, the commercial market will shift, but I always believe that as photographers, we shouldn’t have all our eggs in one basket. We should have passive income streams—that’s a big thing. Think about creating other ways to monetize your business and bring in revenue. That’s why I’ve just started writing a series of travel books, in addition to my educational business mentoring books.
Marcus: Nice, nice! Okay, anybody else—any thoughts on that? Gillian?
Gillian: Yeah, I mean, AI—if we embrace it in a positive way—is going to make a lot of what we do easier. Embracing all the different tools we have access to will make our marketing and backend processes very slick and automated. That, for me, is very exciting. But I also think, in terms of my clients—I know for a fact my clients choose me because of me, because of my vibe, because of my energy. Even over my photography—that’s why my clients choose me. So that, for me, is very exciting because I will continue to be me, with my vibe and my energy, uplifting my clients in that way. And nobody can ever replicate that. I just think I need to make sure that I am giving all of my clients an amazing experience. It’s not just about delivering imagery—it’s about the experience. It’s the journey I’m taking my clients on.
Marcus: Yeah, and I see you’re sort of echoing what Jeff is saying there, really, in that, basically, for photographers that do maybe multiple images in their package, they’re going to be less affected by AI. But maybe, Martin, for the kind of photography that you and I, you know, we do—headshots—do you think that could be in danger of being affected by AI, those one-off images?
Martin: Oh, I genuinely think there will be a backlash towards AI. Why would you? Everything, on one hand, is all about—excuse me—being authentic and building trust with your clients, and then businesses, if they’re using AI headshots, they’re breaking down that trust. Why would you trust a business that doesn’t even show their real face? I do think, as Jeff said, there will be the lower-end businesses—the fast fashion, people who genuinely don’t care about their image—who are going to go for the cheapest option. But no, for the types of clients that I want, I think they’re going to carry on using me. The way that I have seen AI being used, and this is something that I hope is used more, is that I’ve had clients send me—like, instead of a Pinterest board—they’ve created their brief with AI images, and then they’ve said, “This is the look we want. Can we create this with real photographs?” And I think that is a good use of AI.
Marcus: Interesting, nice one.
Jeff: It’s funny, I’ll give you an example of exactly what Martin was saying. I’ll give you a comparison. So, last week, this new cafe opened up in Annick, and it was a bespoke little cafe with homemade cake, barista coffee, and stuff. I had to go through to Annick while my dog was getting groomed, so it was like an hour and a half in Annick. I’m on a diet at the moment, and my girlfriend says, “Did you go to the cafe?” I went, “No, I went to Costa.” And she went, “Why did you go to Costa?” I went, “Because I knew I wouldn’t have any of the cake in Costa, because it’s managed. But if I went into this little cafe, I’d eat it. So, what do you want? Do you want the Costa-McDonald’s headshot, or do you want the gourmet? And you know, that will dilute the industry a bit, and people will go for certain stuff. But I would not go to McDonald’s and eat it, you know? And it doesn’t put you in a load of choices of gourmet and bespoke on the market. I think that’s another way to look at it.
Gillian: Yeah, is that where you want to feel on that kind of thing? Yeah, I mean, I—yeah, I see it. Obviously, I see it through more the lens of, obviously, content and marketing, and, you know, the digital side of things. I feel like, yeah, AI is brilliant, undoubtedly. You know, it’s helped people so much. But, linked to the points that have been made, really, people can churn out content now, you know? It can be fast, it can be quick, and it can mean that you can get up blogs, for example, on your website super quickly. Whereas previously, photographers may have completely procrastinated on blogging—done one and then never done it again—that kind of thing. And so, of course, that’s really powerful for small businesses. But equally, there’s a lot of rubbish that comes out of AI, clearly. It’s the people who are actually going to use AI as what it’s intended to be, really—as a marketing assistant—then put their own spin on it, adapt it to their voice, include their own personal case studies, experiences, real-life examples, and real personal takes that are unique to them. They’re the ones who are actually going to make blogs that are actually rank-worthy for Google. So, you know, I see it spread through the content marketing lens. It’s super valuable, but at the same time, yeah, it’s linking to the same point. Do you actually want a photographer who really cares and takes pride in their work, and is genuinely an expert in what they do? Or do you want someone who’s just, you know, whacked up a load of rubbish—really thin, poor-quality content with no personality—onto their website, just to try and, you know, beat the algorithms? And, you know, personally, for me, I think it’s just going to get overdone. In the end, it’s going to be the people who stand out with a genuinely different thing to say—a unique voice, you know, that sounds authentic—who are going to win.
Marcus: Well put. I think you’ve all put a very strong argument there for why AI, I think, is not going to be successful in the photography industry. I do agree. I mean, it’s obviously taken—it’s grown a lot in copy, isn’t it? That’s where most people are using AI. I mean, I was just on this course, and they were telling you how to use ChatGPT, and I was actually—wow, I was just blown away by it. So, yeah. So, what about the benefits to a photographer for AI? Do you think there might be any benefits? And we already know one or two in Photoshop and stuff like that. What other benefits do you think we might have?
Martin: I think, like Zoe said, you know, content creation is a great thing, but then it’s having that ability to, you know, have your own voice and be authentic as well. You can see so much crap out there on social media that is just generated without a voice, without any personality, in, like, some ChatGPT. And, funny enough, when I uploaded my new book last week to Amazon, one of the things it said was, “Is AI used in the creation of this book?” Now, I travel a lot, so every time I go anywhere, I love to get a travel book about the place and read it on the plane. With my last trip to Poland and Moldova late last year, I bought two travel books, and both of the travel books were horrendous. It was just list after list, and it was all generated by AI. So, I went on to Amazon to return the books, and they must have flagged up that it was AI because it said not to actually return the books for a credit. My account was credited with the money—it was 10 quid for each book. The account was credited with the money within 24 hours, and I just chucked the books in the bin. But if you look at stuff like that, there’s so much out there. It reflects in the reviews, you know—one-star reviews, two-star reviews—because people just think, “Oh, yeah, I’ll just leave it to a robot.” But, you know, a robot doesn’t experience it. It just writes what content it picks up off the internet.
Marcus: Yep. Yes. Any other thoughts?
Gillian: I’m loving the ability to segment. There’s a lot of AI that I’m using in the back end of a piece of software called Ella, and I can segment my messages to various types of clients. So, for instance, in my mentoring business, I can send a certain type of message to a more advanced photographer and then another type of message to a more beginner photographer.
Sam: And is the AI separating them out or also changing the messages for you? Is it doing all of those things?
Gillian: I have to do the messages, but again, I can use something like ChatGPT to help me. And, obviously, that’s a great suggestion from Zoe—the Uber suggestion. I’m definitely going to have a look at that. But I think the ability to segment, and once it’s set up, it’s all just going to do it automatically. It’s going to help me talk to my ideal clients in a much more bespoke way and offer them services that are right for them, rather than just offering everyone everything and casting the net too wide.
Zoe: I mean, linked to that, to be honest, as well, the other advantage is that photographers can finally, with the help of ChatGPT and the like, get clear on the fundamentals for their marketing, in my opinion. Because that’s what I help photographers with on the mentoring side of my business. You can literally use ChatGPT to produce a really detailed ideal client avatar. You know, that awful exercise that everybody procrastinates on, doesn’t actually ever want to do, or does do to an extent—but they haven’t really. So now, ChatGPT is really helping my students to get to grips with who it actually is they’re trying to market to and go really in-depth with that, because those insights can be super valuable. So, yeah, that’s a definite plus from an AI perspective. And then again, the more you prompt these tools with extra information—of course, you’ve got to input the data in the first place, you’ve got to have a good prompt—you can’t expect something decent out of a very thin, poor-quality prompt in the first place. But the more they get to know you and your client, and the more information that you’re talking about in the actual conversation with ChatGPT and the like, you know, the more it will understand. You can always refine and ask more questions—literally speak to it as a person. But the insights can be absolutely mind-blowing. And yeah, I feel like the people I’m working with, and I’m guiding them through that, are finding real clarity on their ideal client avatars. Finally, you know, even 10 years or so into their business, they’re actually getting clear on that. And then that’s changing—like you’re saying—how the messaging can be adapted to suit, if you are actually targeting more than one kind of customer.
Sam: Amazing. Cool. So, I think, right, I think it’s time to move away from AI.
Marcus: Goodbye, AI.
Sam: Briefly, on equipment. Now, if you get photographers onto equipment, we could be here for six weeks. We’re going to just—we just kind of—do we have a thought on, in the next few years, where it’s going? I know Martin and I had quite a strong conversation—I may start with you, Martin—about mirrorless cameras on the Facebook group. I know you’re a big advocate of those, aren’t you, Martin? You’ve kind of taken them up quite a while ago.
Martin: I am, yes. Yeah, I’ve been mirrorless for eight years, I think, now. I honestly think, in the next few years, we’re going to be using our phones more. The amount of times I might be photographing a corporate event, and there’s someone who comes up next to me and just takes a quick shot on their phone, and the processing inside the phone just makes it look amazing straight away. I have to spend time in Lightroom to get it looking as good. But I think, also, as well, it’s so instantaneous. Now, one of the benefits that I do sell to my clients is the fact that I can transfer the pictures from my big camera to my phone, and they can have it—send it to them. As photographers, we need to get over the, I’m a photographer because I use a big professional camera. The phone will do the job quite possibly better and quicker than your big professional camera. So I can see it going that way.
Jeff: Yeah, it’s nice to hear somebody’s common sense about mobile phones, you know, because one thing that really sort of gets my go is photographers doing posts on the likes of LinkedIn and Facebook and then seeing at the bottom as if it’s a get out close. By the way, this picture was taken by my mobile phone. Who gives a tots, you know? And I’ve got this, that’s my latest book, but the pictures in here, right, full colour pictures, they look absolutely amazing. And 80% of the content in that new book was taken on my phone. And if I hadn’t had the phone with me, I wouldn’t have taken them because I wouldn’t be in a cafe eating a cake and photographing it for my book with them.
Marcus: Oh my God, the man’s obsessed by cake.
Sam: That sounds good to me.
Jeff: My only thing is the ability to just get stuff out there, doesn’t it, and create stuff. And like Martin says, you know, I can take a picture of the landscape and I’m not a landscape photographer, but and then press enhance on the phone and I’m like, oh my God, that’s brilliant. I’ll just darken down the shadows and then put it on Facebook and loads of people like it. And I put a story behind it and I don’t say, by the way, this is taken by my mobile phone.
Marcus: Yeah, I mean, Sophie, shall we come to Zoe on this one? I mean, just because obviously you’re involved in PR and getting images out quickly, you must be very pro using a mobile phone.
Zoe: For me, for me, I mean, I’m not a photographer. I’m the only one in the room that isn’t a photographer apart from Sam, I don’t know if you dabble.
Sam: Amateur.
Zoe: Okay, so I’m not even an amateur photographer. So I mean, obviously, I’ve got a smartphone of my own. But in terms of my clients, they’re all still using, you know, professional cameras. But that’s not to say, you know, the phone doesn’t have a place. So, you know, as Martin and Jeff said, there is a time and a place for it. And I think there are advantages, of course. I can’t really comment on that as not, you know, not being a photographer, really. But I think absolutely having the tools to capture something in the moment will always have a place from a social media point of view. Obviously, that more candid style of, you know, content is definitely a plus. And of course, we can so easily, you know, whether you’re a photographer or not, you know, take photos, take videos. And that is all great content, linking in with what we were saying about authenticity, and, you know, showing your true self, you know, building that personal brand. So I think that will definitely be important from the marketing side, from the content side. But yeah, I can’t comment as not a photographer.
Sam: My thought is that from a PR point of view, what are people going to think if a professional photographer turns up with a phone? Because in people’s mind, a professional photographer turns up with a big camera. Do you think from like a kind of marketing image point of view, that would be an issue?
Zoe: I think that will be something that, you know, over time people get over. Because I think, you know, there is that expectation, perhaps, that you turn up with all the kit. And in fact, one of my clients was interviewed on a podcast and had this very kind of conversation with the host. And it was a bit like, the client had commissioned him as a photographer and was surprised when he was just using a fairly small piece of kit. And he’s like, oh, you’re not going to go with the big kit. And he was like, well, actually, this one’s better than that one.
You know, so I think it’s just perceptions. And I think if you’re confident in your photography skills, and you know what kit is going to deliver the best photos, and that’s going to achieve the objective of the shoot, the project, whatever it is, you know, I think it’s just about putting your foot down and going, no, I know how to get the results you’re after. And this is the kit I’m going to use. And I think over time, people will just get used to that.
Gillian: I also think Martin talked about delivery time. I think that’s definitely something that’s going to change more and more. As photographers, historically, we’ve been proud of, oh, it’s going to take me weeks to edit this gallery and deliver it. Clients want things really, really quickly. So to be able to get over that and deliver quickly using a piece of AI, like Evoto is a piece of software a lot of the brand photographers I work with are using now.
But to be able to let go of feeling, I’ve got to spend weeks on editing this gallery, and actually just book that edit time into your diary and get it done in 24 hours, or as Martin says, on the actual job.
Marcus: I think that’s great. If I just might say, from my point of view, I, you know, I’m already using my mobile phone on my shoots for the video, because I don’t need stabilisation on it. It’s just incredible. And the focus track, the tracking on it is really good as well, better than my camera in some ways. So, but what I am looking forward to, though, is when you can use your flash with a mobile phone. That would be quite something, wouldn’t it?
Sam: And then, talking about the video market—so I’m wondering, you know, video is just, in terms of content, more and more popular, isn’t it? In terms of social and stuff, video just is king. So, how much do you think, over the next years, photographers are going to really need to think about including video if they’re doing anything? Obviously, it’s like giving a baby photo—you want the photo to put on the wall. But if we’re talking about working with commercial clients, are we really going to start to move towards needing to provide video because it’s just so essential for people’s content?
Martin: But I already, you know, work with—I would say—probably 60, 70% of my clients in 20 or different countries around the world. And I already encourage them to use video and include video as part of their packages, but not like, you know, two- or three-minute Hollywood blockbuster production-type video with amazing lighting. What the client wants—the client would probably rather have 10- to 15-second clips as opposed to one two-minute video, because one two-minute video will sit there on the website, it’ll get used once on social media, and then not get much engagement as it’s repeated. But if you give that client 10 to 15 fifteen-second clips, that will get lots of engagement. And remember, even if you’re just taking it with a mobile phone, the client is paying for your perspective and creative ability to think about something, tell a story with that phone. You know, it’s like a builder—you wouldn’t say, “Are you going to be using a nail gun? Are you going to be using a hammer?” You know, as long as the tool helps produce what the client wants in that finished story, then it doesn’t matter if it’s a mobile phone. But video is fantastic for getting that engagement because Instagram loves it, Facebook loves it, LinkedIn’s starting to love it more, and that’s what our clients need. They want to be seen more, they want more visibility, and they want more engagement.
Zoe: Yeah, I think, definitely, from a marketing content perspective, you know, video is going to be key. And whilst, you know, people are reluctantly shifting towards that, I mean, I think in two years’ time, there just isn’t an option—you just aren’t relevant if you haven’t got that content in place. And I think, talking about websites and optimizing those—yes, that’s all very much about copy and engaging words—but actually, you’re going to need that video content on there as well to really absorb and create that experience, that brand experience, and absorb people in, draw them in emotionally, and hook them in. So yeah, video is absolutely going to be key.
Marcus: It is, but let’s not forget the real power of photography—or a photograph—in that you can look at it… I mean, how long does it take to look at a photograph? It’s less than a second, isn’t it? The figures are people—and in that second, you can get so much rich information across. And in this world we live in, where time is such a priority, surely that has got to be the real power of a photograph. Still, video will never be able to match that.
Gillian: There’s a space, isn’t there, for all the different types of content? There is a space for those amazing, impactful storytelling images. There’s definitely a space for video and lives. And then there’s a space for the written word. All of these different types of content—we all have to embrace all of them, in my opinion.
Sam: Yeah, yeah.
Jeff: And something that, you know, LinkedIn’s algorithm works on is a thing called dwell time as well—you know, how long somebody is physically inside that post. So, you use the image to stop and create attention, but then you tell a story, you write something, you engage people, and then they’re in that post for longer. And then they’re actually leaving, you know, big comments, and they’re getting into discussions, as opposed to just one nice picture, “Love it,” or just giving the thumbs up. So, the image is great for stopping the scroll, grabbing attention in the newsfeed, but we still need to put some… To get that authenticity and build relationships, we still need to be able to tell a story and put that content in there.
Martin: Sort of lockdown—I mean, it was five years ago now, wasn’t it? I decided to take the time to teach myself video. I bought lots of equipment, and I took on a few video jobs, and they were fine—just sort of your talking heads. And then I took on a job that was a bit larger. It was creating half a dozen videos, 12 interviews, a couple of half-days’ B-roll footage, and then I just sat in front of the computer. I just had hundreds of files, and I—it’s, yeah, it just wasn’t for me. So the editing side of it… So I’m reluctant to go back into video again, but I can see how it will be important.
Sam: So yeah, I’m… all those little—so Geoff would talk, you know—the little 10-second, 15-second snippet video you’ve had to edit down.
Martin: It’s… for me, if I’m on a shoot, I want to take behind-the-scenes stuff, and it’s always in my mind before the shoot. I’m like, right, as I’m taking pictures, I’m going to set my phone up on a tripod from the corner; I’m going to move it around. On the shoot, I completely forget, because I’m a stills photographer, so I’m concentrating on that. And then, driving home in the car, I’m like, “Ah, I didn’t do any BTS again. So I think, for me, almost, I’d love to be able to take a content creator out on all my shoots with me. Going back to what I said about Ollie, my son, earlier on—any summer holidays or school holidays, he comes out on shoots with me. And he’s only sort of a teenager, but he’s genuinely a brilliant photography assistant, and he’s great at shooting the BTS stuff. For me, I know it needs to be done, but I think it’s very difficult to add that into what I do. My mind is so focused on stills.
Marcus: That’s a fair point, that’s a fair point.
Sam: That’s my only foray into professional photography—doing exactly what your son is doing with my dad. Carrying, folding, and unfolding the big reflector. And yes, behind-the-scenes shots, back with 35mm back there.
Marcus: So, what about marketing? What’s marketing going to be? What’s going to be a big platform in a couple of years’ time, do you think? I know—let’s look into our crystal balls a little bit—but any sort of thoughts on that? Where we might be marketing?
Zoe: I think social media reach has been declining—that’s organic reach—so that’s going to continue, because they’re going to want to continue using these platforms to make big money. So, you know, at the end of the day, if you’re not paying to be seen, you’re going to be invisible. So, I do feel that it’s really important, more than ever—and this isn’t a new thing—to invest in your website. Because ultimately, no one can take that away from you. That is your real estate; that’s your online home. You’re in control of the content. And I see so many photographers investing the majority of their marketing efforts and budget into Instagram and Facebook, etc., and, you know, actually, they’re not getting anywhere—they’re not getting any clients. Now, that’s not to say that people aren’t nailing it on social media, because, of course, there are always exceptions to that massive generalization I’ve just made. But I think you need to be on social media, absolutely. But I think, as it is—as a platform to try and get organic reach—it’s just not going to work. I’m seeing it, you know, myself, and I’ve got a Facebook group of about 1,100 or so photographers, but the reach has been dying and dying over time. And, of course, you can increase that by creating content that people actually want to engage with. Of course, there are things you can do. But at the end of the day, it was nothing like what the engagement was, you know, a few years ago. And I think it’s fair to say we’re all experiencing that on our pages and our profiles, probably, and in our groups. And so, yes, what it does actually is make you raise your game. It forces you to create better content, to be more strategic with what you’re sharing. And I think that will continue to just be true across all these platforms and whatever the future platforms will be—to make us all better at what we’re doing. Because being lazy, doing slapdash content, you know, just posting stuff up and hoping for thousands of likes and comments, it’s just not a reality anymore. And I think that will continue to get even worse and worse in terms of, you know, that organic reach and that engagement. So I think I always would highly recommend really investing in your website if you haven’t already and making that the hub. And I’m talking about blogging, you know—content-wise—creating all those engaging stories, elements, sharing your visuals, obviously. But yeah, just not leaving your website to just be a platform that exists but isn’t really something you’re focusing on, on a weekly, if not daily, basis in terms of improving it. So yeah, invest in your website.
Martin: What I do find quite interesting—sometimes it’s the slapdash content that you do just create in two seconds, don’t think about, and chuck up—that’s what performs better than the stuff that you actually spend a few days thinking about. You almost script it, film it, plan it, and… no one views it. So I think it’s defining what is better. Because you also, as well, at the moment, you’re seeing some photographers—especially in the wedding sphere—almost creating an online character for themselves. And it’s little sort of comedy skits they’re doing. And it’s like… does that make us better photographers? So, what is better content?
Marcus: Oh no, it’s the moment I’ve gone low.”
Jeff: When it comes to content, you know, like, it is that visibility, it’s getting seen. Because, you know, I’ve quite a big following on LinkedIn, but I’ve put—and people get, you know, paranoid about LinkedIn—should I put anything out that’s not business-related? You know, I’m constantly putting pictures out of me and my daughter on the motorbike or postboxes. I’m obsessed with vintage postboxes, so I’ll take a picture of one and put it on, and those get engagement. People know what I do; they only have to go to my profile and have a look, and it says it in my header—what I do. What I’m trying to do is just stay in the newsfeed and be seen. Funny enough, a guy joined my program back in December, and he says, ‘Jeff, I’ve been looking at a few mentors. I had a few calls, and I’ve decided to go with you.’ And he says, ‘Because all the mentors I’ve spoken with know their stuff,’ he says, ‘but you know what appealed to me about you?’ And I went, ‘Well?’ He says, ‘You’re a really good dad.’ And that is like—he says, ‘Because I’m always seeing pictures of you and your daughter and stuff like that.’ And it was just a connection. You know, when it comes to that, people buy from people who they like. And if you build, you know, like Martin’s talking about Ollie and stuff like that, you know, put that out there. You know, that gets engagement and shows you. You’re not doing it to—it’s just, you’re putting out the persona or character that you want to be, and it’s authentic and genuine. And I talk about cake and postboxes because I look at postboxes and eat lots of cake. So yeah.
Marcus: I just made a note to myself—we had to get a child. So I’m gonna be working on that. I’ll let you know in two days how you go about getting that child.
Zoe: It’s difficult on that because I can totally see why that resonates with people. Because I’m a parent myself, but also, people have got different tolerances to sharing pictures of family and stuff, and that’s something I don’t really do, quite honestly. But that, it’s—the same concept is true. Whether it’s your hobbies or your interest in those postboxes or traveling around on your motorbike, Jeff, you know, it’s the passions and, yeah, the personality. So it’s family, and it seems like it’s working really well for you. But I know when I speak to photographers who come to me and say, ‘Oh, how do I get more visible and not just talk about my work all the time?’ I’m like, ‘Yeah, you don’t want to do that. You want to build a brand and build, you know, a vibe around your business that isn’t just all about what you’re doing for clients.’ But we all, obviously, as individuals, have different levels of tolerance around what we’re prepared to share, and I think it’s just leaning into what you are comfortable with sharing and making that a big part of your personal brand. But yeah, it’s so important, absolutely, to reveal your personality.
Gillian: People are craving in-person events and the in-person touch as well, I think, in our marketing. Obviously, it’s important to have the online pieces, but for brands, actually going to events, networking events, talking face-to-face—when, you know, we were locked up for several years—so that in-person piece is really important and a lovely way to connect on a deeper level.
Marcus: What do you bring to that, Gillian? If I may say, you’ve built your community, and you know, you’ve got some great fans there, but you really also big up your clients, your mentees as well, don’t you? So it’s a very—and it seems very natural. Now, I say, I wonder—that’s up—because you, the majority of your people, you work with the women. I wonder if it’s a bit easier for women to do that. I don’t know. What do you think?
Gillian: To—to what? To connect online, or?
Marcus: Well, not connect online, but to put out your personality. I don’t know. I just find—I’m a bit boring, and men—a bit boring, are they not?
Gillian: Well, no, I don’t think so. I think some people are just a bit more confident about it than—than others. I don’t think it’s a gender thing. I think some people are shyer and more introverted, and I always say, well, still get yourself out there. You don’t have to be something you’re not, but your ideal clients will be attracted to you because you are a bit of a quieter energy, you’re a calmer energy, you’re a little bit more introverted. You still need to be visible—just be yourself.
Sam: So, we’re talking about the future of marketing, and Zoe, you said, website—because that is kind of your area, and it’s away from the social stuff, and you’ve got it. What if, on that basis, do we also think email marketing is kind of a growth area? Oh, good, here we go. In a similar way, isn’t it? Because it’s that—it’s not on somebody else’s platform. I mean, you might not mention, but you can move it. It’s yours, and you can—you can do what you want with it. Do we think that could be an area of growth as well, or are people just getting fed up with stuff in their inbox?
Gillian: No, I think it’s a massive area of growth. I don’t really believe in email marketing. What do you think, Zoe?
Zoe: I was going to agree with you—yeah, like, absolutely. Because, again, it’s that real estate that you own. That list is yours until people unsubscribe. You know, you have every right to comment, communicate with them—but it’s with the caveat that there are changes now, obviously, in like iPhones and things that—I don’t know if you’ve noticed—but the way they filter, auto-filter emails, and obviously, a lot get filtered to the junk boxes. And, I mean, I ran a workshop yesterday, and I kept getting messages from people saying, “Oh, I haven’t had the link,” and it’s so frustrating. You know that they received it—I can see through my platform they were sent it—but invariably, I always have to now say, “Check your junk mail,” because it’s been filtered. So, I think we’re going to be—I think email marketing absolutely has a place, and we’ll still all be doing it in two years’ time. And you need to invest in building that list, and again, getting them to the website—from the social media to the website. That’s where they sign up for a lead magnet or freebie or whatever. So, you get them hooked onto your list, then you’ve got to keep communicating with them through your email marketing. But we will be fighting these AI tools, these filtering systems, so visibility isn’t going to be as great going forward as what, again, in the past we’ve achieved. You know, if we had really good open rates, we’ll find that now they’re declining year on year. So, it’ll be interesting to see how that industry changes, but the concept of building a list and owning that as a marketing asset will, I think, definitely still be relevant.
Martin: When it comes to sort of like the email side of things, you know, myself—if I, you know, every morning you wake up and there are 50 emails that come in overnight—then I’ll blitz through probably 40 of them without even reading them. Because it doesn’t have my name. If it opens with “Hi,” and then “info,” I focus on marketing, I’m like—delete, delete. I don’t even read, because I know it’s just general spam. But there are certain emails, I guess, I look forward to, or brands that I follow where I’m like, “Oh great, they’ve got a new product line out,” or “They’re doing this,” that I’m signed up to, you know. So, I don’t know if everybody else does it, but yeah, every few months, I’ll go through a purge, and I’ll just unsubscribe to stuff just to cut down the amount of crap. But, you know, I might have 10–15 emails per week that come in to me that I’m really looking forward to getting or making a purchase. Because I no longer go to places like the Metro Centre and do shopping and stuff—most of my stuff’s done online, you know.
Zoe: I think that links in with that general comment we’ve already made about the quality of content. You know, it’s up-leveling in every single shape and form—your marketing. So, whether it be—you know, no one wants spam, an email that’s just full of junk. You’re going to hit unsubscribe, of course. So, I think it’s a real positive thing for people who are prepared to invest in creating quality stuff, because they’re the emails that are going to stick in people’s inboxes, and they won’t be hitting the unsubscribe button. So, I think it’s all about just improving our game, really.
Marcus: Love it. Here’s a question for you guys—let’s just say I’m starting out in my photography business. Tell me one thing from each of you that I need to do in the next two years to become successful—if you can become successful, whatever success means. But you know what I mean—you know what I’m getting at. What one thing can I do in the next two years?
Jeff: Price yourself well from the start. Don’t think, “Because I’m new to the business, I can’t price myself like a professional yet.” Just price yourself properly, otherwise, you won’t have a business in two years.
Gillian: Absolutely agree. I was just going to say the same—it’s pricing and money mindset. Work on your money mindset. The book I mentioned at the beginning, brilliant book by Denise Tuffield-Thomas, but yeah, work on your money mindset and have the confidence to price correctly.
Martin: Totally, and working on something that you’re saying about price, you know, price has got nothing to do, essentially, with the quality of your photography. It comes with the quality of your brand and how people have a preconception about it. You know, your brand is really, really important—the colors, the feel, the fonts, the message—so you’ve got to get that right. But sometimes, in order to get that level of authority and that strong brand, especially in the commercial sector, you might have to do a few shoots for free. But only do shoots for free for people who have authority and make you look better. So don’t go and do a shoot for Bill’s Bed and Breakfast for free—go and do a shoot for free for the Marriott Hotel in exchange for putting the Marriott logo on. Then the images you share have the Marriott menus and stuff because their authority will spill over into your authority. There are a lot of people who say, “I should never do stuff for free.” I would say, yeah, do stuff for free if their authority and visibility are going to help your brand and allow you to charge a lot more. But as Martin said, if you start off cheap, you start off at the bottom, you’re just going to be recommended to other tire kickers and freebie hunters—”I’ll go with this guy because he does it for a hundred quid”—and it’s really hard to get out of that. But having that self-belief—you don’t have to have loads of awards, you don’t have to have been doing photography for 20 or 30 years—you just have to have the brand and the message right, along with the self-belief and confidence to get out there.
Gillian: And definitely, if you do go ahead and do a couple of complimentary shoots, make sure you limit them. Don’t get stuck in that. Educate the client as to what that would usually be worth. So, even if I ever do a complimentary shoot for one reason or another, I will still invoice the client with the full cost of that shoot—just marked down to zero.
Sam: And they talk to other people—they know exactly what they would have paid.
Gillian: Exactly! I’m educating them—this isn’t just a freebie; it’s something that is of value. And I will also ask for things in return. I will make sure I get stuff in return—shout-outs on their social media, a shout-out on their email list. If it’s, for instance, a business coach, when I was starting off in brand photography, I did a complimentary shoot for her because she had an audience of my ideal clients. So I made sure I got lots of shout-outs in her audience, I provided some pre-recorded trainings to sit in her audience, and I made sure she promoted my lead magnet. I got things in return that were of value to me and the growth of my business.
Zoe: I would say my take on that question is that—well, there’s a quote I often share when I do workshops: “There’s nothing worse in life than being talked about, and that’s not being talked about. As business owners, as photographers, you need people to be talking about your business. You need to have that visibility, and you need to be doing things to make people talk about you and what you’re doing. So you need to be seen—being in the right places, being at the right industry events, being at networking events, whatever it is that is relevant for you. Being seen. But doing things and collaborations, I think, is going to be so key going forward for businesses. It is now, it has been for years, but it will continue to be—because leveraging other people’s audiences, getting seen, getting those brand associations and those recommendations, like Jeff said—Marriott Hotel, etc.—you know, it’s just being visible. So I think sitting behind your computer at home, editing, and not really focusing on marketing—being strategic with your brand associations, your networking—all of that, I think, is what’s going to hold people back. You do need to get out there and be visible. But get people talking about you.
Sam: Amazing. Well, we have had so much to talk about, we are starting to run out of time, it is, believe it or not, coming towards the end of the show.
Marcus: Maybe, Sam, before we finish, we can just go round from everybody and say what they hope to be doing in two years time. I think that’d be a nice thing to finish.
Sam: Yeah.
Marcus: Yeah, come on, what do you think? Can you share that with us guys? What do you want to be in two years time?
Gillian: Absolutely, I want to be exactly where I am now. I’ve worked really hard to create a life in sunny Spain for myself, so I just want to be exactly where I am now, serving my brand photography clients, serving the photographers I help and living life, enjoying the sun.
Sam: Amazing, very nice. Martin?
Martin: Where I want to be would probably be very different to where I actually am.
Marcus: No, where you want to be, come on, let’s hear it.
Martin: Where I want to be, oh, sitting in a park drinking cider, that’s all I want from life. Just the simple things. That’ll do.
Marcus: That’ll do, it’s nothing like ambition and that is nothing like ambition. Jeff?
Jeff: Travel, yeah, I love travel, that’s one of my big things and having an online business and still being able to travel is good, but I suppose if I had a dream thing, yeah, I’d love to go really, really sort of like downsized and live in a log cabin in the middle of the woods, surrounded by nature. But you can’t buy them, I’ve been looking everywhere. You can only see these log cabins on sites where you’re looking at other people and it’s full of happy people on holiday parks. I just want to be on my own in the wood.
Marcus: But where do you get your cake, Geoff? Where do you get your cake from?
Jeff: I’d have to order it in, I’d have to be like, and then I get a little bench outside so Martin can come and visit me.
Sam: Sounds good, and Zoe? Not as exciting as that because I’ve got kids who are sort of 11 and 12, 13 sort of age at the moment, so I’m still very much limited in my family zone to being at home and working as I am, I think. But you know, that works for me, but travel is definitely on the bucket list. I’ve done a fair bit already, but I’m doing a bit more, but in my current circumstances don’t allow me at the moment. But yeah, just continuing to do what I do. I genuinely love what I do. I’ve been doing it for 10 years with photographers and the more photographers that get in touch and want my help and I can support, you know, that just lights me up. So I would love to support more people, help people get visible and do all the great stuff to get seen. So yeah, I think it’s a bit geeky, isn’t it, to admit that you just want to stay doing what you’re doing. But that’s the physical reality for me. I’ve got to be home-based for the foreseeable. But yeah, somewhere sitting in Maldives beach somewhere with my laptop perhaps in five, ten years time maybe.
Marcus: What about you, Sam? What about you? Where do you want to be in two years?
Sam: Well, that’s interesting because my life’s kind of all changing now because, yes, I have one child away and another one going to university. So I suddenly have a world of opportunity and change. And I’m already at the other side of the world in Mozambique, but I may be coming back to drizzlier skies before long. So there’s so much choice at the moment.
I’m at that stage of just working it all out. What’s going to happen next? Lots of thoughts and no plans yet.
Marcus: So we’re going to the sun and you’re coming away from it. For me in two years, obviously, I’m still hoping we’re doing a podcast together, Sam. I have to say that. And also I’ll be in Mexico running my branding photography masterclasses over there. And yeah, I’ll be on a park bench drinking tequila instead.
Sam: Excellent. Right. Well, thank you all for joining us. Gillian Devine, Martin Hobby, Zoe Hildermark and Geoff Brown. You have been amazing. That has been so kind of you to give up your time and share so much valuable stuff with our listeners. I’m sure we will have you all back on the show at some stage as well. It’d be lovely to have you back. Thank you. Thank you so much. Please, listeners, do leave us five star reviews. The more reviews you get, the more people will spot us and the more people can enjoy the podcast. So we would really appreciate that on whatever platform you are on. And Marcus, I will see you for a slightly quieter show next week.
Marcus: It’s going to seem so dull. Thank you, everybody. Have a wonderful rest of the day and see you in two years time.
