“Show Notes”
Kate works at Humber HR and has been doing HR for over 20years. Kate has lived in several European cities before coming back to Yorkshire.
Kate says understanding how people present and communicate at work is useful for photographers. Understanding how this works will help us work better with more clients. Kate’s degree is in psychology, and she says the waywe present ourselves to the world depends on a huge number of factors. She says people present themselves in several ways. Extraverts and introverts are examples of this. And it can be difficult when people at the opposite ends of thespectrum meet. Another concept is pace. With pace, some people pick up work and run with it very quickly, while others need a lot of time to get the details and understanding before they feel able to start. This is the basis of disc profiling, and anyone can get a disc profile of themselves.
Disc stands for Drive, Influence, Steadiness (pace), and compliance, and these are sections of the disc “pie”. Sam asks how you can do this when you can’t ask your clients and leads to profile themselves. Kate says understanding your profile is an important part of this. So, for example, don’t give a longquote to someone who doesn’t want much detail and vice versa. Kate says you don’t need someone to do a profile to work out what their disc styles are. We can use clues in the way they communicate, dress and behave to determine where they fit into. So knowing your profile and understanding the system helps you with this.
The conversation moves on to working with freelancers. There are two types of working together in the UK. Either working together as freelancers or being employed. There are no grey areas in between. There are 7 tests to see if someone is employed or a freelancer. It asks questions like Does someone have to wear a uniform?
Or do they use their equipment?
The way to ensure this is clear is to put together a freelance agreement. This needs to make it very clear that this person is afreelancer, not an employee. You have to be careful that this doesn’t creep over time. The issue is that if someone could be thought of as an employee, they could be entitled to all sorts of things like holiday pay, and they could take you to a tribunal asking for backdated holiday pay. Once you start to employ someone, there are lots of things you need to think about. But it’s not as scary as it seems, just set it up correctly at the beginning. There are day one rights that need to be made clear, like how they are paid, etc. Having a handbook is also an idea. The key is that the handbook is written for your business.
So, for example, including intellectual property in the handbook makes it clear that the work they create belongs to the business.
Marcus asks how to put together these documents. Kate says Don’t ask your mate down the pub, Google or a previous employer. The Chamber of Commerce and FSB have some templates that you can use. There are lots of HR consultants who can do this for you.
You can find Kate on LinkedIn here
Or email her atkate@humberhrpeople.co.uk
“Show Transcription”
Marcus: Hello there, Sam. How are you doing?
Sam: Very good. Thank you, Marcus. How about you?
Marcus: I am diddling. Very well. Thank you, Sam.
Sam: Enjoy the good weather.
Marcus: Enjoy the good weather.
A friend of mine said to me last week, oh, God, you always sound so cheerful, you two, on your podcast. I said, well, you know, how are we meant to sound? He’s like, we are cheerful. We are cheerful people, aren’t we, Sam?
Kate: I don’t think any of those podcasts would do well, guys.
Sam: And as we’ve just noticed, we have a guest with us today. So, yes, welcome, Kate. Welcome to the show.
Kate: Thank you, Sam. Good morning. Morning, Marcus.
Marcus: Good morning, Kate.
Sam: So this is Kate Vantislaus from Humber HR. So, Kate, do you want to, well, I kind of said who you are, but you want to introduce yourself a little bit more.
Kate: Oh, thank you. And thanks for having me. It’s really nice to be asked. Yeah. So I work over in sunny North Lincolnshire today and I’ve been working in the job for about 22 years, 23, maybe, something like that. So, yeah, we do a lot of work with people, do some work with photographers, as you know, Sam, and generally interested in people and work and all of those things. So hopefully some of your listeners will be interested in some of the stuff we’ve got to talk about today. I haven’t lived quite as far afield as some of my colleagues almost told, but I have lived in Paris and I’ve lived in Edinburgh and I’ve lived in Germany. So I’ve been around a little bit, but I came home to Yorkshire about 17 years ago. So my career has included teaching. So I taught English as a foreign language, which I really enjoyed. And then fell into people-based career around recruitment and HR, which I’ve been doing ever since. And I do that in a consultancy space because every day is different. And that’s an interesting thing.
Sam: Okay. Cool. That’s our second guest in a row who was teaching English as a foreign language, Marcus.
Marcus: That’s right. I can’t tell you what I was just thinking.
Kate: There’s lots of it out there.
Marcus: Yeah.
Sam: And now you run Humber HR. So like you said, you’re kind of helping all sorts of different businesses with their HR stuff.
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. So we’re a HR service business. So we operate as the HR department for small companies dealing with everything from the day the person, their employees join to the day they leave and everything in between.
Sam: So yeah. And you’re in a busy office from the sound of it. Is that the doorbell we could hear?
Kate: That was our doorbell. I know how to say it, but it’s a really good doorbell because if you remember Grotbags back in the day, this is an English kids TV program. It was called the pink windmill. And that’s the Grotbags doorbell.
Sam: Oh, there we go.
Marcus: It’s like a sample from a doorbell. That’s a good idea.
Sam: Excellent.
Kate: Need a good doorbell.
Marcus: So HR is your background dealing with people. So obviously, you know, there’s a lot we can discuss on the show today with you. But what do you think is a good thing you want to talk to us about that’s going to help our photography audience out there?
Kate: Okay. Well, I’ve got a couple of kind of HR bits that are probably useful information swaps. But actually, the main thing that I thought we would talk about is how different people are in work and how different people communicate differently. Because even if you don’t have employees, understanding how different people present at work, which is different to how we present at home, really can help build relationships. So that might be with a customer or a client or a project. And that’s something we do every day in all aspects of our work. So that was something I thought might be of interest.
Sam: Yeah. I mean, photographers obviously all have lots of clients by their nature, don’t they? So we’re constantly dealing with different people. And yeah, I think all of us found who do that that some people you instantly can talk to and you get on well with it. And other people, I don’t know about you to find it. It’s not so easy. It’s more of a challenge.
Kate: For sure. There’s definitely people you click with, isn’t there? People like us. And that’s where you feel that instinct connection is met. And it’s very easy and conversation flows and you kind of get each other and you can’t really describe why. And then there’s the opposite that happens, isn’t there? When you meet someone, you go out, oh, what’s going on here? I’m not getting the responses I expected. And they don’t seem to know it’s not clicking. And that can be very confusing for everybody actually. And what that’s based on, so my original degree is in psychology and it’s based on how we perceive the world. And it’s not a personality test. So we’re not talking here about counseling or anything like that. But what we’re just talking about is how we present ourselves to the world. And it’s all to do with nature and nurture. And it’s to do with how we grow up and the people around us when we grow up. So one of the most commonly understood kind of scales of this is introvert versus extrovert, which you’ve both heard of, of course. And most people can identify quite quickly whether they’re an introvert or an extrovert. So some people are in the middle, some people are ambiverts. They can kind of be that people person, but not all the time. And that’s okay, too. So that’s one of the first scales. And if you’re an extroverted person and you’re quite happy to go into a room and talk to strangers, or you’re quite happy to go to a party and introduce yourself, then meeting someone at that party who’s quite introverted, who doesn’t want to automatically kind of tell you something about themselves or join in with the conversation can be really awkward. And that’s exactly the same in business, isn’t it, when you meet someone who you think, oh, they’re a bit frosty.
Sam: Yeah, you’re trying to start a conversation and it just feels like it’s a conical battle because you’re getting a one word answer. This is hard work.
Kate: I know, 100%. And of course the person on the other side will be thinking, why is this person providing questions at me? What’s this about? I don’t understand. What are they trying to get out of me? Why are they going so fast? It will be equally as confusing for them. So yeah, that’s one of the scales. And the other scale is how fast somebody’s prepared to kind of work. So we call it pace. So it’s whether somebody is happy to grab hold of something, get that idea, get that concept and run with it. Or whether somebody is going to go, just a minute, what’s all the detail here? What exactly are we doing? Why are we doing it? When are we doing it? I don’t understand. And they’ll need much more time to absorb things. Those two scales and they kind of interact. So yeah.
Sam: So you can always map people on a graph can with kind of those, the one, one way and one the other.
Kate: Yeah, there’s loads of tools out there that you can use for free that that map, you know, what we call work behavior. And so one of them is insights and one of them is disk and then you can go. Yes, they’re easy to find and use. And usually quite interesting, you know.
Marcus: Yes. I did the disk, the one you mentioned, the disk profiling. I found it very interesting, actually. Yeah. And it gave me insight. But as you’re saying, talking to people who are different, you know, sort of mindset yourselves. Have you ever done it? Sam, have you done the disk profiling?
Sam: I did something along those lines. I can’t remember which one. There’s so many of those. But I’ve definitely done one of them many years ago. I worked with a business coach when I first started out. And yeah, I did one of those. It was so long ago now, though, that I’ve kind of lost track.
Kate: Did you get some colors, Sam? Can you remember if it was colors?
Sam: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, colors. It was the usual. Yeah. You’re this at this and you’re, oh, you’re up here for that. And you’re down there for that. And you’re over there for that. And here’s your kind of map with them all interacting together. And these are the people who you will understand. And these are the people who you will have challenges with and that sort of thing.
Kate: Yeah, that’s the thing. It’s been around for years and years. But I think the reason it’s got longevity and that it’s sustained is because of how important it is, you know. Yeah. And it’s good to refresh every now and again and look back at it. And I’ve often asked, you know, do people’s profiles change? And the main answer is no, not really. But they kind of alter.
Sam: Okay. Kind of innate.
Kate: But you can’t really, if you’re a natural extrovert, it’s actually very difficult and not really sustainable to pretend to be an introvert every day.
Marcus: So, yeah. Yeah, you’re sort of stuck in it, aren’t you, really? But, you know, look at an actor. You know, they can obviously change characters very easily. So, maybe there is scope for it. But I’d love to hear more about it. And pack it a little bit more for me, if you may, Kate.
Kate: Okay. Well, shall we talk about, so we’ve talked about two scales, haven’t we? Introvert and extrovert. And we’ve talked about pace, which is the other scale. But actually, if you kind of picture that as a pie with four pie pieces, then what we split that into is four letters, So, disc stands for D, I, S, which you’ll go out and see. So, D is drive or dominance, sometimes. I is influence, which is all the people he’s just. S is steadiness or pace. And C is compliance. So, that’s perfect, correct, and right, we like to call C.
Sam: Oh, right.
Kate: There’s no one of those styles is any better than any other, actually, and they all have strength and they all have limitations.
Sam: So, yeah. And then these are often you, so if you’re in a workplace, you often, everybody can have these done, and then you can kind of see what everybody else is, and then you can say, okay, so that person’s that, that person’s that, and then you can have tools to help you how to interact better with those people. So, how could we use it as people who were working with lots of people? So, like, you know, as a photographer, you can take it yourself so you can see your profile, but you can’t obviously, if you’ve got a lead come in saying, excuse me, before we start to write your conversation, would you mind going and filling in this profile? So, kind of, what, how can you use your profile to try and help you interact with other people when you don’t have that information?
Kate: Yeah, sure. There’s two ways I think you can do that. So, the first is to, if you understand your own profile, because you’ve done one of these things, you’ll probably understand who you will, what your natural communication style is. So, if you ask somebody who’s got a really high C profile, you will know that you like detail. Lots of it. And you usually like it written down, actually, just so you’ve got something to refer to and it’s there. So, if you know that your style is that, but you’re working with someone who probably isn’t that detailed, overwhelming them with a quote, for example, for your work that’s 25 pages long with 60 tables of fees in it is not going to help your relationship with that person. Okay.
What will help is if you give them a really quick executive summary and four bullet points, they’ll understand that and they’ll like it and they’ll get it. And it’ll make your life so much easier. So, that’s one way to understand it.
Sam: The reverse is true for the other person. You want to send them a huge quote with all the details because that’s what they want.
Kate: A hundred percent. And then be prepared with that huge quote for them to come back with 19 questions, by the way, and don’t get so frustrated because they will because that’s their work style. He’s more like that style. The other way you don’t need to, I don’t necessarily need to get someone to do a profile to understand what their preference is. You just need to be aware of what the different styles are. So, the one example we just talked about, if somebody prefers to communicate with you on email, they’re likely to be more detail orientated. If somebody prefers to deal with you on the telephone, they’re likely to be more people orientated. So, they’re going to be impacted for an eye, for example. If somebody is very formal, so they, I don’t know, let’s say they have a formal email signature, perhaps, or the way they dress is more formal or the language they use is more formal, they’re likely to be more task orientated. They’re going to be in their story, obviously. If someone is more informal, they call your mate, they give you a hug when they see you, they meet down the pub, they’re much more particular orientated. So, just when you start to kind of understand this, you can pretty much mirror how you work with them, just to make that relationship a little bit easier and a little bit smoother.
Sam: So, yeah. So, it’s important in some ways, probably, to understand yourself, but then also to understand the system, the different type, so that when you meet people, you can relatively quickly, you won’t exactly, but you can quickly, roughly, put them in the right place.
Kate: Yes, and you’re probably doing this intuitively anyway, because if you’re feeling…
Marcus: I was going to say, I think it can be an intuitive process, can’t it?
Kate: 100%, 100%. And it’ll be just like when you’re introduced to someone new for whatever walk of life, you know, most of us fairly quickly go, oh, okay, this is how this person prefers to talk. I didn’t interact to deal with whatever it might be. So, it’s just giving a little bit more awareness to that, and I think in relation to, you know, if I was working as a freelancer and I wanted to perhaps, I don’t know, get more clients or manage my clients easier, then I think just applying some of this thinking could make life a little bit easier for you, so you know, why not?
Sam: Yeah, and just building notes on your CRM, couldn’t you? Because, you know, little note, right, remember, email this person, remember this person likes WhatsApp, or just, you know, little things to remind you, what does this client like to communicate, how much information do they like, that sort of thing?
Kate: Yeah, 100%, and you can ask them actually. There’s no, again, there’s no need to guess this stuff. If you said to somebody at the end of a, I don’t know, first call or something, listen, how do you prefer me to talk, communicate with your next, are you an emailed person? Do you want me to just give you a quick ring? You know, they’ll tell you. Yeah, yeah,
Sam: yeah, yeah, okay. Because I normally go off what they respond to in some way, so I often try different things, and you suddenly, I find, yeah, instantly, they’re calling back all their WhatsApping and that you’ve kind of worked out their way. I’ve never thought about speaking with stupid, really. Not just asking.
Kate: It’s only over years of doing it badly, some. Trial and error that I’ve got to this point.
Sam: That’s it.
Marcus: I, you know, as a portrait photographer, I think it’s a fascinating process that you can go through there, and it’s something that is definitely worth investigating there. Let’s move on. Let’s move on.
Sam: I just had one more thing linked to the photography markers, which you made me think of. I’m thinking, could that almost that, the way they are, help with the photography? Help be useful in informing how you photograph them. So, if you’ve got a branding client, could actually, you know, that knowledge about them help you, you know, put them across in a certain way in the photography?
Marcus: Yeah, maybe. Maybe it can. I mean, you know, I think if you’re going to be a photographer, dealing with people, you’ve got to be fairly empathic. I think it’s helpful to be empathic, and I think there’s lots of signals that you can get off, you know, that you can, that are giving off, that you can pull in. And it’s not just personality type as well, isn’t it?
Sam: No, there’s all sorts. That was part of it. Oh, so, yeah.
Marcus: There’s definitely part of it, Sam. Definitely part of it.
Sam: Sorry, Marcus, is that intrupt you? Yeah, so, not at all, mate, not at all. So, now, just moving on to this, like, second half to show, and we’re going to be talking about, because, Kate, I know you are an absolute expert in this, employing people.
Kate: Oh, the joy. The joys.
Sam: And then, should we start maybe with a freelance, because that’s where a lot of photographers might take on, like you do, Mark, because they might have an assistant from time to time. They might be working a photo shoot and bringing a make-up person or something. So, they’re bringing in a freelancer. And I know, Kate, from our conversations, you have to be quite careful when you do have freelancers, don’t you? There are certain things you have to follow to make sure they don’t end up appearing as employees, which can land you on all sorts of issues.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you put the nail on the head, actually. So, in the UK, broadly speaking, there are only two types of working with someone in inverted commas. So, one is you pair up with a freelancer, and the second is you employ them. And there really isn’t much gray area between the two in the UK employment law. So, if somebody is working for themselves, we need to treat them as if they are working for themselves. So, I know that sounds really pandemic. You know, a bit condescending. I don’t mean it like that. What I mean is to kind of underline it, right? So, what I mean by that is there are seven tests of whether somebody is truly a freelancer, and you’ve probably come across this if you’ve ever freelanced yourself for other people or with bigger companies. So, some of those tests would be, are they subject to the same rules as an employee? So, do they have to turn up at the same time as employees? Do they have to clock in and out? Do they have to wear a uniform? Are they using your own equipment, or actually does the equipment belong to the company? So, there isn’t a hard and fast yes or no. There is a test online, but it’s a HMRC test. So, it does tend to suggest that most people are employed. Probably leave that where that has lanced. However, those seven reasonable tests are kind of common sense things. If you’re, if you’re expecting someone to behave as an employee, they probably are an employee in the eyes of the law. So, you want to be really careful. But the way to deal with that, which we’ve talked about before, Sam, is to have an agreement with that person. It is not a contract, a contract implies employment. We have an agreement, and it could be called a freelance agreement, it could be called a subcontract agreement, it could be called an associate agreement, call it whatever you like, just call it an agreement. And that will outline things like you’re using your own kit, you’re going to insure yourself, you’re a freelancer, so you’re going to invoice me every month, whatever arrangement you’ve put in place. You’re just going to have something that definitely says this person is a freelance person and not an employee. And once you’ve got that in place, actually it’s fairly straightforward. As long as you remember going forward, because sometimes that relationship gets real close, doesn’t it? Because you get working together and it’s cool and you might as well be employees at that point. That’s how it feels. So we’ve just got to remind ourselves that even though it feels like that, it’s not that. So then what typically happens is you work together for six months or 12 months and things start to creep. And that person kind of starts to be treated a little bit more like a member of the team, which is nice, or a little bit more like an employee, which is nice. But again, we’ve got to be really, really careful that we don’t start moving into that territory. And the one to be really careful of is how you manage that person. And the answer is you don’t. They manage themselves.
Sam: Okay. So you’ve said the lots of, yeah, you mustn’t. You’ve got to be really, really careful because they might end up as an employee. So what’s the risk if they do kind of creep into being an employee?
Kate: Yeah. So employment rights in the UK, particularly at the minute, because we’ve got a new labour government and we’re quite employee focused right now. Employees are entitled to lots of things, as most of us know, and increasingly entitled to more things. So holiday pay and pensions and lots of rights and all those things. And if you’re not intentionally employing someone, but you treat them as if they are, then that person could potentially go to a tribunal and say, actually, I’m an employee. Thanks, Sam. And I’ll have all of my holiday pay back dated over the past seven years.
Sam: Yeah. So you just got to be really careful to keep that separate.
Kate: Yeah, you really don’t want to be in that space.
Sam: Yeah, yeah. So you’ve got to think if you’re getting a second photographer and they come with their own equipment, they come with their own stuff, you don’t want to come in. You give them a camera, you put them in your branded t-shirt, because at some stage, that looks like an employee, doesn’t it?
Kate: For sure.
Marcus: But you can do that, but you can do that on a one off basis or a semi or on a regular basis.
Kate: Yes. So if you’re working together on projects and that person is coming with you and they’re representing the project, then there’s nothing wrong in your agreement to say, when we’re working projects together, we will be wearing some branded gear so they know that we’re the tough photographers. Is that all right? As long as you’ve got it written down, you know, and then it’s an agreement. So that at some point, because of course, the defence is always in writing. So if that person, if the relationship goes sour and three days down the line, they go, you told me I had to wear a uniform and you told me I had to be there on time, you can just produce your documents and go, look, we agreed this at the start. You’re self-employed, right? But that’s what you need. Just one of those.
Sam: Yeah. Cool. So then should we kind of move on to the employment, which some photographers, especially you’ve got things like a studio, people will then start to need to employ people. So and that’s a whole other world, isn’t it?
Kate: It definitely is. I mean, at that point, you’re really talking about setting up a business, right? So once you’re talking about employing people, you’re going to need to start thinking about professional indemnity insurance. There’s a whole bunch of other things apart from employment law that you’re going to be thinking about perhaps. Employing someone for the first time, I’m all up for it. I think small businesses are the backbone of the UK economy and we should all be encouraged to grow our businesses and we should all be employing people. And it’s not as scary as it seems. You just need to make sure that you’ve set it up right. Essentially is the message. So yeah. Once you’ve got you’ve identified someone that you want to potentially employ, it’s really important that there is a thing called day one rights in the UK. So that means on or before day one of employment, they are entitled to a contract of employment which sets out what they’re going to be doing, when they’re going to be doing it and all of the other lovely things that we need to know when we start a job, how they’re going to get paid, all of that basic stuff. And in an ideal world, you’re also going to have a set of policies. And that sounds complicated. It doesn’t have to be. It can be just one document. You don’t need a big chunky handbook with 98 pages in it. But just a set of sensible short policies in human language that makes some sense to you both. And that would be things like what to do if you poorly, some sickness policy, what to do if you’re off work, absence policy, termination policy, what happens if they leave, that sort of stuff. And what’s important with those is that they’re written for your business. So in photography, you guys deal with a lot of IP. Don’t you deal with a lot of, you know, creative data, creative property that belongs to you. What you don’t want, of course, is an employee to disappear if the relationship goes wrong and take all that with them and say, well, actually, that’s mine. No, it’s not. So what I would be tempted to have as a part of it, if I was running a photography business, I would have a policy that covers intellectual property and makes very clear that whilst in employment, that intellectual property belongs to the company and not to the individual and that they’re not entitled to take it away and stick it on a site, you know, and claim it’s all theirs because that wouldn’t be right. Yeah. And so that might sound quite scary, but actually it’s really not. It’s just kind of a framework. And again, it’s having everything agreed up front. It stops problems later on.
Marcus: And to put those documents together, Kate, what do you recommend kind of do online? Would you go to an expert like yourself? What would I do for that?
Kate: Yes, there’s different options. Obviously, I’m going to say go to an expert, but there’s kind of good reasons for that. But there are different options for going to an expert, too.
So it doesn’t have to be that expensive. The thing not to do is get them from your friend down the pub. Your friend who’s worked in a month, multinational or Google. Don’t do those things because you will end up in a place where you’ve got a load of documentation that you don’t understand. It’s been written for a different jurisdiction potentially, and it will actually cause you more problems than it solves. So don’t not the bloke in the pub, not Google and not a previous employer just because you happen to have a copy. Don’t do those things. What you could do is if you’re a member of the FSB, so Federation of Small Business, they have some free templates. That’s better than Google. Likewise, so did the Chamber of Commerce have some free templates. They’re not. I know I’m going to say this.
They’re not bespoke. They’re just templates, but it’s still better than nothing. So those are normally included in your membership anyway. There will be some free downloadable templates, but don’t get them from Google. Go to somewhere that looks like it’s a HR, you know, kind of.
Sam: Companies and you don’t HR presumably as well.
Kate: Yes, please. Yeah, I have seen Orange County, California on the bottom, to which point.
Marcus: Oh, my lord.
Kate: Yeah, that’s important. And there are lots of options as well if you want to get them written for you. So rather than just a template, there’s loads of independent HR consultants.
Most of them are pretty good. Make sure they’re CIPD or ideally, because that means they’re keeping up today. They see chartered institutional development is a good, a good kind of to look out for a good qualification for someone to have a bit of experience in dealing perhaps with smaller businesses also very useful because writing policies for small businesses is very different to writing them for, you know, a PLC. So that would be helpful as well. But a few hundred quid, I reckon you could probably get a bit of something. And yes, of course, some of the HR also provide that service. And ours is kind of a little bit more gold-plated into the virus. We will bespoke those policies, walk you through them, write them for you, but also help you to understand them and give you the training so you can implement it as well, which kind of, you know, thoughts and braces approach.
Marcus: Yeah, that’s great. Well, that’s a great option then, isn’t it, really? If you’re going to do it, you’ve got to be serious about it.
Sam: Cool. And then because I think for most, so I’ve met quite a few HR people and then 90% of them say yes, that the way we always meet new clients is they come to us in a big pickle because they’ve not done any of this to start with. And then something’s happened and they’re all gone, oh, God, it’s all done a bit horribly wrong.
Kate: Honestly, like most things in life, prevention is definitely better than cure. Cure is expensive and ends up with lawyers and lawyers are way more expensive than HR people.
So we don’t like that. There are some good lawyers out there. I’ll caveat that with that because some of them put them, yeah, prevention better than cure.
Sam: OK, perfect. That’s amazing. And how can people get in touch, Kate, if they want to get in touch with you?
Kate: OK, so while I’m on LinkedIn, like most people are, so I think I’m one of the only vander slouses on LinkedIn.
Sam: We’ll put the links in the show notes too so they can find you.
Kate: But my email is Kate at, and it’s Humber, as in the River Humber, the big wet thing that joins our history. Humber HR people dot pro dot UK.
Sam: Perfect. And again, yeah, all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for being with us, Kate. Loads and loads of things for our photographer listeners to take away there. I hope it’s helpful.
Kate: Thanks for having me guys. It’s been a pleasure.
Marcus: Very helpful. Thank you.
Sam: That’s right. And then listeners, if you want to make sure you never miss an episode, which, of course, is very important, you need to be on the newsletter list. Then the episode gets sent to you every single week. You get all sorts of extra information. You find out if you’re doing webinars, events, downloads, whatever it is. It is all in the email newsletter, so you need to be on it. It’s dead simple to sign up. Go to shootstothetop.com and sign up there. Kate, thank you so much for being with us again. That’s been really, really interesting. And Marcus, I’ll see you next week.
Marcus: Yeah. Thanks, Kate. And see you next week, Sam. Cheerio.
Kate: Hey, guys. Bye.
Sam: Bye.
