00:00:00.92
Marcus
Well, hello everybody. It’s Marcus here and welcome to our listeners, old and new. We have a guest today on the podcast. It’s Harry Rose from Darwin Agency. Hey there, Harry. How you doing?
00:00:15.50
HARRY
Hi mate, I’m good. How are doing?
00:00:17.49
Marcus
I’m Pretty good myself. Thank you. Thanks for asking. So, Harry, um I’ll just give a quick raise resume a of who you are and what you do. You basically run a very successful photography agency where you’ve got photographies photographers working for you.
00:00:27.24
HARRY
Yeah.
00:00:34.20
Marcus
And you also do a you run a production agency as well.
00:00:39.62
HARRY
Yeah, so we run them we run a production sort of like coincide with ah with Darwin Studios. So we you know when we get a job for a photographer, we either offer to do the full production for the client or um they will do a loan out or they just want the photographer and they handle the production with someone else.
00:00:54.49
HARRY
So it’s ah it’s either or depending on who you’re working with.
00:00:55.32
Marcus
Yeah.
00:00:58.62
Marcus
And so one’s called Darwin Studios and the other one Darwin Agency.
00:01:03.20
HARRY
They’re both called Darwin Studio. we’re all under the one We’re all under one name.
00:01:04.79
Marcus
Okay.
00:01:06.24
HARRY
I mean, it does confuse people because people think we’re a physical studio. So I have to sometimes, ah you know, we’re foremost of a photo agency that offers production support.
00:01:17.12
HARRY
And then, you know, but a lot of the time we find ourselves doing the production anyway. So it’s it’s interesting how it’s evolved and become more of a you know, people coming to us for all those things.
00:01:26.97
Marcus
Well, we’re certainly going to be digging into all those aspects of your business during this show. um And it’s a great name. And um I think that’s good a good place to start, really, because I sort of know a little bit of your history, your early history, because yes because you were a student at the university while I was lecturing.
00:01:41.08
HARRY
a yeah
00:01:45.39
Marcus
You were at the University of South Wales, what didn’t you?
00:01:48.70
HARRY
I was, I was, well it was Newport back then, wasn’t it?
00:01:51.32
Marcus
Yes, it was.
00:01:51.38
HARRY
well four Before the merger happened, we were at Newport University where they filmed a and got it got abandoned that building and they used it for um sex education, the TV series.
00:01:53.37
Marcus
Before the merger.
00:02:01.05
Marcus
I know.
00:02:01.26
HARRY
Yeah.
00:02:01.61
Marcus
It was a lovely… We had some great times there, didn’t we? have It was a great space, wasn’t it? The studios were terrific.
00:02:07.60
HARRY
It was a really nice building. It was nice that it was up and away from anything. You had to get a bus or drive there to be on campus, if you weren’t staying on campus. So yeah, it was a really great experience.
00:02:22.23
HARRY
It felt like everyone was just in these studios and creating environment on a hill and just and just chatted and got stuff done.
00:02:26.17
Marcus
Yeah. Yeah.
00:02:28.78
HARRY
You weren’t really distracted by anything else, really, which was really lovely.
00:02:30.58
Marcus
Exactly right.
00:02:33.88
Marcus
Exactly, yes. And um i mean, eve I lectured on the fashion course, fashion BA, but you were on a different BA. The BA you did was the…
00:02:44.41
HARRY
I did the fine art one. um And i think I think I cross paths with every lecturer and everyone.
00:02:51.32
Marcus
Yes, well we certainly did. No, you Harry, you you you probably don’t know this, or you might know it, but you ah we we talked about you often in the staff room, as it were. um You were one of the star pupils.
00:03:06.36
HARRY
Oh, thanks, mate.
00:03:06.81
Marcus
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:03:08.09
HARRY
I didn’t feel it. I didn’t ah certainly didn’t feel it at the time. I was very much… um I guess it’s kind of weird because you don’t… you know i think universe sometimes university you go there to kind of…
00:03:19.06
HARRY
It’s great to kind of figure out who you are a bit and also what you want do, what you don’t want to do.
00:03:21.18
Marcus
Mm-hmm.
00:03:22.49
HARRY
And um I was very much just like never thought I’d get into it. I mean, i’m not I wasn’t very academic. um so i know i know and you know photography was kind of like my last resort otherwise it would be a ah career and doing something i probably didn’t want to do so um i kind of ran a ran at university and anything that was put my way and extra stuff to do just because i felt like you know you got you gotta get one shot at it and um you kind of have you have to really just you have to throw yourself and especially i feel like especially more in the arts now um
00:03:49.08
Marcus
Correct.
00:03:55.18
Marcus
Oh.
00:03:55.90
HARRY
You’ve got to really just go for it. you can’t You can’t be a passenger in anything in the creative industry anymore. You have to really drive what you would like to do. and yeah i kind of had that i had that just i don’t know i know that my as you know my my father passed away well after a year.
00:04:10.14
Marcus
Yes, I remember.
00:04:10.97
HARRY
in uni and that really going into second year that really drove me in a lot of ways and and obviously whilst I was at first year you don’t know obviously I knew what his um diagnosis was so I think that kind of spurred me along and I kind of wanted to I wanted to try everything and know everything and pick everyone’s brains and talk to everyone and people yeah
00:04:31.31
Marcus
That’s exactly what it’s you’re there for. That’s exactly what it’s all about.
00:04:34.68
HARRY
yeah
00:04:34.87
Marcus
um Yeah. And it’s so the if I remember correctly, you like i would actually let you tell us the kind of work that you were, the kind of work that you were producing when you were a student. And that will give us the link into what you’re doing now, I think.
00:04:49.66
HARRY
Yes, i was I was doing, so I was on a um fine art course and obviously there was, um but obviously at the time there was documentary in the fashion photography courses and along with the time, the like a lot of it, you know, it so everything’s in conversation with one another all the time in photography.
00:04:57.52
Marcus
Yep.
00:05:02.74
HARRY
So I would talk to other courses and i think i I think I bonded a lot more and spent a lot of time with the documentary photography lot i than anyone else, I think.
00:05:13.30
Marcus
Well, there with yes. They were the cool kids, weren’t they?
00:05:16.44
HARRY
yet it they were they were They all looked very cool and it all kind of made made me feel very uncool.
00:05:16.91
Marcus
They were the cool kids.
00:05:21.24
Marcus
yeah
00:05:24.54
HARRY
um And I really found a lot of that world quite interesting. There was actually a point I was going to jump course and go from second year and go into dot go into the documentary world.
00:05:32.44
Marcus
Yes.
00:05:35.03
Marcus
Yes, I do remember that distinctly.
00:05:36.78
HARRY
Yeah, I was going to jump up.
00:05:36.99
Marcus
Yes.
00:05:38.50
HARRY
and um And so I was making a lot of, a lot I think I was making a lot of projects which were really kind of what I was going for at the time and and and very kind of like a biographic kind of um work and kind of documentary kind of like, it’s very much like, yeah,
00:05:57.26
HARRY
followed what I wanted to kind of, you know, my experience, I’m a firm, but and it’s kind of extended outward because I was a firm believer that and every any any type of photographer I talk to, whenever they show me work and, you know, it might be something they have no, wouldn and and they show me stuff that they have no knowledge of or experience or understanding.
00:06:14.61
HARRY
they’ve gone and photographed it. I’m always just like, why have you done that? Because, you you know, your voice, finding your voice and what you’re interested in and and the ways you can, you know, weigh into something is really interesting.
00:06:24.92
HARRY
So I did a lot of things which I basically write about, you know, my experiences either growing up or my experiences now.
00:06:29.27
Marcus
Yes.
00:06:32.79
HARRY
And there was a lot of kind of seismic change when I was at uni. I think civil partnerships and gay marriage was just going through in my second year. And i think there’s lot of quality things happening in uni.
00:06:40.53
Marcus
Yep. It’s surprising, isn’t it? I know it’s incredible, isn’t it, to think.
00:06:43.64
HARRY
that it’s open When you look back now, you kind of go, oh my God, there’s so many nice big seismic shifts in the UK and and kind of like the social cultural landscape when we with when I was there.
00:06:53.78
HARRY
I wasn’t, I went into university completely unpolitical and I came out at the other end very obviously.
00:06:58.90
Marcus
Great. Well, that’s good. That’s a good thing. But your your work explored identity differently.
00:07:01.46
HARRY
Yeah.
00:07:04.76
Marcus
identity
00:07:06.27
HARRY
Hmm. It did, but I also, i think, I think I talk, I talk and I did some photography kind of like, I did some projects kind of like 2018 and 19 and 2017.
00:07:17.94
HARRY
and so in two thousand and seventeen Cause I kind of, I think I’ve kind of pitched myself in as like, Mulder from X-Files meets Louis Theroux trying to do a photography project. I think that’s what I kind of wanted to be.
00:07:29.64
HARRY
And then whilst I was doing various other jobs in the industry. And I think i think um how my, a lot of my actual interests I found, and it grew as I went through the kind of journey of being at uni and and sort of after that, I think my my interest became more in others and how they tell stories, how they make work and how they do things.
00:07:48.22
Marcus
Yes, yes, exactly.
00:07:50.82
HARRY
And I i started Darwin Magazine in year…
00:07:54.10
Marcus
That’s exactly what i was going to get to. So just to our listeners haven’t quite missed the link, you started this concept of Darwin Agency Studio, do what you’re doing now, really back when you were at university.
00:07:55.80
HARRY
Yeah.
00:08:05.24
HARRY
Yeah.
00:08:08.15
HARRY
Yeah, it spawned from there. And i think I was the because I just got my first kind of political head on and, you know, I got into the photography world. and i was like, oh, my God, what? There’s, you know, you’ve got to have a lot. You know, I i but you know if ah i came from but i come from a very kind of like middle class, decently well off like background. I don’t ever kind of dispute where I kind of, you know, where my roots were at But then when I was looking at the industry and realizing, God, i’m I’m so far below all the other all the other micro microro classes in the in the industry to get anywhere, that I kind of thought, what would be really interesting if I… um
00:08:44.92
HARRY
you know, it started up a magazine that celebrated and engaged with really exciting, unrepresented. A lot of it was basic the basic concept was like, let’s get a lot student photographers and let’s find a photographer who’s relatively well named.
00:08:58.04
HARRY
We had a photograph people like, I think Helen Sayer was one of them.
00:09:01.50
Marcus
Oh, yes.
00:09:01.52
HARRY
We had… we had um
00:09:02.39
Marcus
Yeah.
00:09:04.66
HARRY
And sometimes it was lectures from the course because I know I could get them in it. So right can you you just send me some of your images and and I can write about you and pop you in it. And so we would find and we’d find kind of like relatively interesting big and photograph shows at the photography big awards, we’d get into contact with them or there’d be rising documentary photographers who everyone was excited about at the time. I would get them in it and then I’d put a load of photographers no one ever heard of because they were all just students.
00:09:31.90
HARRY
um um um And, of course, his name is Sharns.
00:09:31.99
Marcus
m
00:09:37.59
HARRY
There’s a few a few photographers now who are like really, really well respected.
00:09:37.80
Marcus
Oh, yeah.
00:09:43.09
HARRY
And I was the first person to publish their work and put them in and put it in something.
00:09:48.44
Marcus
And what was did did you have that what was your idea, your concept behind Darwin? Okay, you’ve got these photographers together. And that is a great idea, by the way, to start an agency with your fellow students.
00:09:55.67
HARRY
Yeah.
00:10:00.06
Marcus
I’ve always thought to myself, that would be why don’t students do that? You did it. But what was the overriding concept behind Darwin at that stage? Was it what you have now? Or was it something you were developing?
00:10:11.61
HARRY
It’s got less, ah it’s a lot, ah now it’s got less, it’s a lot smoother edges to what the what the magazine was, which was very much like, very much in opposition to things.
00:10:23.48
HARRY
And like, very like, let’s get these people. And and now I’ve kind of realized as you as you move on in the, as you navigate kind of professional landscape and world, you’ve got to be a bit more, um you know, smoother at getting what you want.
00:10:37.21
HARRY
And I think it’s lot more narrative.
00:10:37.40
Marcus
ah Of course, it’s a business. It’s a business.
00:10:39.99
HARRY
so we um so it start So it really was very much that the magazine, like in print, getting photographers, father finding work finding interesting work, publishing it, selling it. We were stocked across.
00:10:50.47
HARRY
We did seven issues. We were stocked across Europe. I think we had 20 places it was stocked in.
00:10:56.22
Marcus
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:56.76
HARRY
And then… And then we and then and we were actually the rise, we were ahead of all the, there was a lot of, there’s magazine like Splash and Grab and other magazines and that came out and we were kind of ahead of them.
00:11:10.21
HARRY
We had like three or four issues before these people came along. And actually my friend sent me a picture, it was ah he texted me, it was like, oh, um Darwin magazines and the photographers gallery.
00:11:22.73
HARRY
And I was like, I know we’re stocked there, but And he was like, no, you’re on a talk.
00:11:23.81
Marcus
Wow.
00:11:26.11
HARRY
So I was giving a talk about publishing.
00:11:27.53
Marcus
Oh, yeah.
00:11:28.66
HARRY
And our front cover was on the big slide they were doing. And it was kind of talking about the rise of self-publishing. And I did a self-published ah book, photo book as my graduate. So was really interesting in producing something and creating something and then putting it in front of people and having like a final product and something that could engage people.
00:11:39.61
Marcus
Yep.
00:11:50.26
HARRY
And and I was really kind of, i wasn’t really aware of like the commercial photography world when I was at uni. I wasn’t really, um you know, I didn’t didn’t really know what a producer was. I wasn’t really connected to anyone or had any ways in, but I think I did a real desire.
00:12:05.19
HARRY
And I named it Darwin because um I really liked, originally was actually, This is not what anyone really knows about. Darwin actually originally started a thing called the Darwin Collective, which was going to be a bunch of photographers that kind of came together and made work, and we would put on it, we would go to put on exhibitions under the Darwin Collective, and it would be a bunch of work that’s shown and made and produced at the gallery, theme or there’ll be a way of connecting all these young photographers making work that was the original idea but then I thought no no no that that’s that’s A that’s like um I want something that’s actually got you know that’s go physically going to last for people and and you know putting on exhibitions wasn’t really something I had that much of an interest in So we um so became Darwin and the and the whole whole idea of it was I really liked the idea of having someone kind of young and new coming along and challenging the status quo as like kind of Charles Darwin.
00:12:23.38
Marcus
Right.
00:12:56.30
HARRY
Obviously that comes with so many other
00:12:58.58
Marcus
Yeah, yeah.
00:12:58.68
HARRY
you know, conversations are survival of fittest, blah, blah, blah, all the other stuff now that people see outdated. But I think um a lot a lot of it is about evolving, adapting and evolving and changing and and being willing to accept new new new things.
00:13:11.36
HARRY
and And I think that really within the creative world as photographers, and I mean, it’s a lot different. it It’s changed so much since 2017, like before you book even like pandemic, the landscape which keeps changing every five to five to eight years.
00:13:24.32
HARRY
It just dramatically shifts.
00:13:25.54
Marcus
Of course. Yeah.
00:13:27.02
HARRY
And I, yeah,
00:13:28.47
Marcus
So let’s just so you’ve you’ve got that you’ve got this collective together, the Darwin Collective. And then how does that turn into Darwin Studio? What was that process that when you thought, oh, OK, I can start making a business out of this?
00:13:41.18
HARRY
so darwin So Darwin Magazine, essentially, I made it out into uni, into third year, and i I stopped it. When I graduated, I kind of ah stopped it because I kind of, and it turned into it would it it turned into an online magazine um where there was loads of, or basically, i then just digitized the entire kind of every, you could just go through, just PDF the whole thing. So you can go look at back issues and you see new articles of interviews of photographers and artists. and um It lived like that for a year or two, and I kind of just lost a bit of interest. kind of lost the kind of you know the interest for it. I was out of university. it’s really As everyone knows, coming out of university, you’re like thrown to the wild. you don’ It’s such a scary… I would think one of this it was one of the scariest times.
00:14:30.33
HARRY
all my life was leaving uni because oh my god the bubbles burst i’m now i don’t have you know i don’t have my correct my schedule i’ve got to now go and take this degree and make it work so i um i said i worked part-time in shops for a year and a half and then whilst doing that i volunteered at photography festivals and and took copies of darwin and sold them i kept selling the magazine i’d back copies it
00:14:33.50
Marcus
Yes.
00:14:52.98
Marcus
yes
00:14:53.85
HARRY
So I kept using that as a way in with people. I worked at some photography galleries and then I am look kind of i’ve been found a way through. um i met I bumped into someone at I was volunteering at Photo London and I bumped into, so I was just chatting to someone away.
00:15:11.94
HARRY
was talking about how much like I had love photography and like prints and making things and doing things and really passionate about artists and communities and things like that. And then he just happened to be the head of marketing for a massive printing company.
00:15:24.22
Marcus
Oh, that’s how it happens. You’ve got to get out there to get, you know, get on with it.
00:15:28.16
HARRY
you have to be got out there right in front of them and then he sort took me on and then I worked with him for a bit I then kind of then walked away from that job and then was brought on to kind of like out of nowhere was brought over to I was brought over to the British Journal of Photography um and that for me was just like I was aware of the BJP making Darwin magazine I was very much like they were kind of know they did influence a lot of Darwin magazine in the early kind of like three years of it running and
00:15:30.29
Marcus
Yep.
00:15:47.64
Marcus
Hmm.
00:15:55.48
Marcus
Well, do you remember so do you remember Colin from one of the lecturers who used to work right for the BGP at the USW?
00:16:01.46
HARRY
ah Yeah, Colin. Yeah, because he wrote, he was a guest writer for, um because when I was reading the BJP, I noticed they had Colin writing for it.
00:16:02.65
Marcus
Yep.
00:16:08.34
HARRY
So I went to Colin and went, can you write for us?
00:16:09.21
Marcus
Yes.
00:16:10.42
HARRY
And it was, we’re the BJP now, we’ve got all this kind of stuff going on.
00:16:10.65
Marcus
I thought you did. I thought you did.
00:16:15.87
HARRY
So I was brought over there and and the BJP was really, late they were really, they gave me, it was an amazing experience. i spent basically almost four years there, just
00:16:25.62
Marcus
Oh, wow. I didn’t… Yeah.
00:16:27.22
HARRY
Yeah, doing what i doing what really what I really wanted to do, which was nice. So I was brought over there and they had an interview. and it was like um It was with some previous people that I’d worked with who were different departments. They came here for an interview.
00:16:40.22
HARRY
And it was essentially about, it wasn’t really an interview. i I mean, I went over and I had the interview and I was terrible. I wasn’t very good. Because I didn’t really know what I was walking in into what I was really, I didn’t really know what it was that I was being asked to kind of do or what the role was.
00:16:55.06
HARRY
I just said, you want come over and just present on, you know, photography and marketing? And went, okay, fine. I’ll do what I kind of know from my limited experience doing what I do. And then then they brought me over and basically was it was a really exciting role to basically reinvent the BJP from a commercial’s perspective.
00:17:11.50
HARRY
So, you know, advertising with BJP wasn’t great.
00:17:12.47
Marcus
Right.
00:17:14.90
HARRY
People weren’t really paying for it.
00:17:16.41
Marcus
No, it’s definitely a time of change then, wasn’t it? From yeah from from the paper paper magazine to the digital magazine.
00:17:19.22
HARRY
Yeah.
00:17:24.66
HARRY
A hundred percent, it was digitizing. i mean, the magazine was going onto to apps. It had up an iPad app, the magazine that was new for it. um And then I was i was essentially brought over to kind of like work on building a department on…
00:17:39.98
HARRY
essentially how do you make money out of ah advertising and we we built up this idea of well you know the BJP is the oldest, it is the oldest, I mean the the Royal Photographic Society did argue it with us, but were the you know the most successful oldest photography publication in the world like it’s ah ah founded in 1854, we looked but more and looked at it and its history, its culture and everything, it’s a really important magazine
00:17:53.14
Marcus
Yeah.
00:18:05.43
Marcus
It’s a brilliant magazine.
00:18:06.90
HARRY
So good now. i know I know I’m really good friends with the owner. I’m really good friends with the entire, because we all stay in touch. We’re always WhatsAppping and chatting. And whenever I’m London, we’re going out for for meals and hanging out. and it said We um basically just turned, rather than trying to sell in-print advertising, it was like well, why don’t we actually just create original content for brands and companies who want to engage with the BJP’s audience? It was an audience of like, oh, God, rattling my old CV brain, but you know millions of people were engaged through subs or online. We had that kind of data. So we basically launched a commissioning, we were launched like a free-to-enter kind of commissioning platform where we would put up
00:18:45.32
HARRY
uh commissions for photographers saying we’re looking for a photographer to tell tell stories in calabat california or we’re looking to tell stories um about whether there’s this new product this company’s launching and what would you how would you tell a story with that and all those kind of things where we’d give a brief and then the creative community of the vjp will then submit their ideas we would then go through all those and present it to the brand or the client whoever we’re working with the saying these are the creative ideas that come in
00:18:57.98
Marcus
Yeah, right.
00:19:08.79
HARRY
let’s let’s do them and then we would, ah um and and then sometimes I would, a lot of the time would kind of go, well this is what we’re doing and we’d find people who can kind of fit what we’re doing. um Yeah, and I worked with Star Wars, the campaign with Star Wars which was, you know, a little boy who had dreamed to work, to be on the phone to the team at Lucasfilm and we I did a lot.
00:19:28.11
HARRY
I think I did around 25, 26 campaigns there,
00:19:32.14
Marcus
Oh, wow. Well, actually I can really, isn’t it it’s it’s amazing, this thread that is running through it, this very linear progression to where you are now, basically from the the Darwin Collective to working for the BJP and getting photographers to submit their work for the magazine and for campaigns.
00:19:32.76
HARRY
lot
00:19:42.23
HARRY
Yeah, I mean, yeah.
00:19:50.84
HARRY
Yeah, i mean, it didn’t feel like it at the time. And I feel that’s whenever you whenever you hear, like, people who’ve got off and done things, you’re like, oh my God, that’s really great.
00:19:53.33
Marcus
No, it doesn’t. It never does.
00:19:59.49
HARRY
That’s really interesting. You look at, like you said, you look at it and you kind of go, oh, that makes a lot of sense. It’s got, like, a line there. But to me, I just felt I was lot of time just pissing into the wind and just doing things.
00:20:08.95
Marcus
Well, that’s incredibly honest of you, but yeah, there was definitely a thread there.
00:20:10.61
HARRY
Yeah, mean, i didn’t i mean lo i didn’t I didn’t fully know what I was doing all the time. And i often feel that most people, one the things I’ve learned going through, especially creative industry the advertising industry, a lot of people don’t know fully everything to what they’re doing.
00:20:29.50
HARRY
A lot of it is based on you know willpower, a great idea, and a great community people who can come around and make it a reality. that is an all Yes, you need a lot of your time still, and there’s an amazing producers who are so and like smart and ahead of it and you know support you the whole way and cover you when you need to cover you and help you to help you.
00:20:39.73
Marcus
Mm-hmm.
00:20:50.51
HARRY
So yeah there’s all those things. But I kind of learned that I learned so much just by doing things and finding out things on the job. and then It got to a point in the BJP where it for me it fell, there were there were redundancies happening in the company. I knew that I was doing a good job with the amount of you money I was bringing in. They expanded quite, they got quite big and um and too quickly, is which was a, and i’m um i was never a um I was never a yes man, I never have been. And I was very much a, you shouldn’t do that, or this is a terrible idea, like please. And and and and vice versa. When there was something legitimately I was excited by and thought was fantastic, I would really, really champion it I launched, um they got a awards called Decade of Change. That was my like that was my baby, which I kind of gave to them and and sort a portrait of humanity as well.
00:21:42.58
HARRY
So I came up with awards for them so they could generate more revenue for those things.
00:21:45.25
Marcus
Yeah.
00:21:47.06
HARRY
So, um yeah, it got to a point where it kind of felt like they were making redundancies and I kind of felt, I it felt like a natural, it felt like a natural end. And obviously, you know, every, every every company, there is barriers, internal politics and things get shifted. I knew that the,
00:22:02.97
HARRY
commissioning platform was going to become something you paid to be part of to enter that for me stank I was like you know make it free anyone can anyone can engage with this anyone can submit anyone can get their ideas seen by us and we could potentially if we like it enough and we like their work we can commission them and for me that was just like gold dust because those things do not exist anywhere and I was really protective of it
00:22:09.40
Marcus
Yeah. yeah Mm-hmm.
00:22:30.14
HARRY
And when we found out that all these big seismic, and then the company, you know, you’re at the end of the day, it’s a business and it’s got to make changes and it’s got to make adjustments. And I don’t, you know, I left, left there really, I was really sad when I left because it was like, it was home for me for, you know, four years.
00:22:46.80
HARRY
It was the first big, you know, serious job I had outside of uni. I mean, there are other jobs I did, which were good.
00:22:50.53
Marcus
I get it.
00:22:52.12
HARRY
And, you know, I was seeing the same faces for four, four a years. And then I left and I kind of went, what am I doing next? And I just went, i I took a bit of time and and was freelancing for some creative agencies. And I went to work at a photo agency for about
00:23:07.10
Marcus
um Okay.
00:23:08.35
HARRY
So I kind of went there to kind of understand. they I went there, they thought it was well it is a classic kind of Harry situation where I kind of like, had no idea how a photo agency ran.
00:23:18.68
HARRY
They just saw what I’d done before and was saying, oh my God, this guy has like commissioned all of these projects. Look at their portfolio. It’s amazing. i don’t i had no experience on how to run a photo agency or or how to manage photographers yes i mean i worked with lots of photographers and you know they would come in but wouldn’t necessarily be there you know i would be working with them but i wouldn’t be kind of like managing their careers i’d just be commissioning them so hey
00:23:30.84
Marcus
Well…
00:23:43.10
Marcus
Yeah, but you you went to the right place to learn how to do it, Harry. you’ Let’s just say that you’re putting yourself down there a bit.
00:23:50.55
HARRY
was
00:23:51.18
Marcus
You went to the right place to learn how to do it for your goal, really.
00:23:55.38
HARRY
I mean, it was, I mean, much to the kind of um this probably despair of the employees at the photo agency.
00:23:55.38
Marcus
well
00:24:01.84
HARRY
They were very much like, I mean, I worked, I did everything, that you know, was expected, worked hard, but I think they were kind of, you know, i think there was a bit of a, they weren’t expecting what they got. And sometimes that’s exciting.
00:24:12.08
HARRY
And then, you know, sometimes the pandemic hit and then, you know, mean, we, I, I, they did e just, everyone just turned around said, we can’t afford to employ anyone anymore. We’ve got to let everyone and then um And then that was really kind of the birth of Darwin.
00:24:20.09
Marcus
Right, right.
00:24:24.23
HARRY
I kind of sat down. I sat down and went, what can I do? go on You’re about to say something.
00:24:29.69
Marcus
Yeah, thought I was just going to put a date on that and I think we’re looking at 2020. You would have said COVID, when the COVID hit, roughly about 2020.
00:24:34.62
HARRY
Yes, and it was 2020 and then sort of 20, yeah, so 2021 was when Darwin, in August 2021 is when Darwin launched, but it would took a good kind of six months.
00:24:45.13
Marcus
That’s when you launched it, okay.
00:24:48.90
HARRY
and And before then, I launched two other photo agencies for two other people, who we which are still running today. And they’re ironically now my competitors, which is fantastic.
00:24:58.90
Marcus
Oh, wow. i didnt Okay.
00:24:59.93
HARRY
and yeah yeah I mean, you say competitor.
00:25:00.58
Marcus
Okay.
00:25:03.01
HARRY
i’m very I’m very open with a lot. I know some really amazing photo agents. and so photoages where there They work so hard for their photographers. and that They’re so talented. And I keep a good rapport with them.
00:25:15.12
HARRY
It’s not the same everywhere. But it’s…
00:25:18.07
Marcus
Okay, let let’s let’s get in there.
00:25:18.24
HARRY
ah
00:25:19.75
Marcus
let’s get Let’s start digging in deep for our listeners, because there’s going be some more listeners out there who don’t really know what a photo agency does. So let’s just give us a little pitch on that and then tell me what makes Darwin different to all the others.
00:25:34.42
HARRY
Yeah, so, i mean, as a whole, like, that a photo agency’s essential ones responsibility is to basically manage the photographer’s career. So they’ve got a photographer, whoever they’re saying, just for the conversational state, they’ve got a sports photographer in. And they they mainly represent sports photographers. A lot of photo agencies will…
00:25:56.41
HARRY
represent the same kind of photographers. but They’ve all got a kind of similar aesthetic.
00:26:01.79
Marcus
Is that right? Okay.
00:26:05.58
HARRY
I’m yet to find a photo agency, apart from my one, there’s a bit of a humble bragging, that um that that doesn’t that isn’t like that. um Where they they all kind of all fit in the same. And sometimes I wonder why certain photographers join certain agencies, because I’m like, well, you could join that. you know are you really going stand out amongst all those other names and all the work that’s been you know those guys have been there for like five years and they’ve shot all the work you want to shoot do you really want your work alongside that so we essentially the job is to manage their careers find them work bring them work
00:26:39.19
HARRY
And then also, and then manage that relationship directly with the client. So it’s basically in between the photographer clients. So I know what my photographers will say yes to. I know what they will say no to.
00:26:50.05
HARRY
I know what I would say yes or no to. So a lot of the time i I act on behalf of the photographer. I always act on behalf photographer. and essentially get them a really good kind of the best deal that you can get kind of financially and creatively because you you get look every agency will get some dud campaigns sent their way where you do it for the money and you don’t do it for the creativity.
00:27:15.52
HARRY
when You do get some amazing creatives come in book campaigns, but there’s just not much money there.
00:27:15.74
Marcus
Yeah.
00:27:21.00
HARRY
So then you do have have a really honest chat with your patrol saying, look, i know you know I know we’d love to kind of do X amount um on this, but this is all they have.
00:27:21.20
Marcus
Of course.
00:27:31.36
HARRY
you know And then we then pull in favours to make it work. So it’s very much managing their career and their trajectory and where they want to go because there’ll be certain jobs that…
00:27:36.08
Marcus
Right.
00:27:42.07
HARRY
I know, for example, like quite recently, I’ve had photographers who are like, just taking a break. And they’re like, I’m not leaving photography. I’m still doing it. Like, I will do jobs when they come in. But they’re like, can you just hold off on, you know, promoting me and putting me in front of people?
00:27:56.22
HARRY
Because I just want a couple of months off so I can just, you know, take Because they’ve been working nonstop for years and they just wanted a natural, I’m going to take a little bit of a rest time. that’s fine then we got some briefs in for them and i looked at and i like but it was so demanding and taxing and i looked at that and i was like those three months are going to go they’re not going to have any time they’re not to come fresh then we then but essentially bring that work in front of other photographers who you know are a slightly different point in their career who will jump on that campaign and and handle it and a lot of it is you know there’s a lot of pastoral care as well i mean i am
00:28:22.84
Marcus
Yeah.
00:28:30.90
HARRY
I’m very much my I know I got told ah when I worked at a previous photo agent, never let your photographers mix, never let them socialize, never let them be together.
00:28:40.54
Marcus
it have quite Charming.
00:28:41.75
HARRY
Because it’s
00:28:43.16
Marcus
I’ll start bitching about yeah you.
00:28:45.34
HARRY
through the job. what What did they get? And I’m yeah exactly exactly.
00:28:48.25
Marcus
You got paid how much? Yeah.
00:28:51.12
HARRY
and then And I’m the company opposite.
00:28:52.31
Marcus
How many cakes did you have with that girl in your catering?
00:28:56.54
HARRY
yeah i mean Yeah, exactly. that that’s That’s the kind of… i mean that But I was really… When I launched Darwin, it very much launched an opposition to things. because like I’m very much like of those people that i feel like, if going to do something, you’ve got to do it for a reason. And that reason… I mean, either the reason the simplest, because I would like to do this because I would like to have this type of life.
00:29:16.38
HARRY
Fine, go ahead and do it. But I felt like if I’m going to do something… there’s got to be a reason and a driving force behind it. And because I’d freelanced, ah you know, I was fully fully fully employed at one photo agency, I freelanced at a few, set up some others. I worked with creative agencies who contacted photo agencies to work with them. And I knew what the culture was kind of like. And for me, the culture of photo agencies is a very much like a and my photographer being people…
00:29:46.84
HARRY
People listen to this and they either go, oh, yeah, good on you, or, know, like, fuck that guy. And it’s very much like West London privileged money photographers kind of like where, all you know, they they they can do this, because it’s a laugh.
00:29:52.55
Marcus
Mm. Mm. m
00:30:01.03
HARRY
And, you know, that and then that is a huge, biggest you a big, you know it’s a big assumption that you think I could be making. But… I’ve been in those rooms and I’ve been in those meetings and I’ve been in those spaces where I felt completely isolated and alone and detached from what was happening because I wasn’t from those backgrounds.
00:30:18.84
HARRY
I’m like, well, I don’t like come from a middle class, relatively privileged background. If I’m walking into rooms and I’m feeling uncomfortable and not represented and not welcome in a way, even if I was welcome, I didn’t feel like I was welcome.
00:30:28.34
Marcus
Yeah, I like it.
00:30:33.08
HARRY
then what the hell does it mean for like so insanely talented people from lower middle class and working class backgrounds? And that for me was like a huge driving force in like what I do in the sense of a lot of the photography work from a real diverse range of backgrounds.
00:30:52.80
HARRY
And we don’t I don’t go looking for people based on, no, I’m not i’m not looking for like a diversity ticking exercise with who I represent. It’s it’s first and foremost foremost the photography and the um and the creativity and who they are.
00:31:05.18
Marcus
Right.
00:31:05.85
HARRY
person And then, you know, if then and then I try to kind of lift up and bring in people where I can.
00:31:05.85
Marcus
Yes.
00:31:11.65
HARRY
um And it’s, so that’s kind of what Darwin, it’s spawned did in opposition. And then it’s kind of grown and grown and grown kind of be that. But i think the voice, the voice, as we’ve gotten bigger, the voice hasn’t gotten louder.
00:31:25.21
HARRY
It’s kind of maintained. And I found that, different ways of talking about it rather than saying, aren’t you people awful? You only you commission your mates and you only commission this and you only do that.
00:31:36.04
HARRY
And why don’t you you know have a chat with me? or Even if it’s not my photographers, I know loads you could work with who are who are you know unrepresented, but they’re super talented. And a a lot of the time, a lot of the deals, they go through mates at pubs.
00:31:47.93
HARRY
you know I went to call with his mates. I give him chat.
00:31:49.66
Marcus
Of course. Of course.
00:31:50.74
HARRY
And it and it’s it’s so insular. So Darwin’s always been about kind of like breaking that a little bit. And we’ve been really lucky to find a lot of producers and art buyers who connect with, and like, know what I’m like. And Darwin’s like, the voice of Darwin’s me, basically.
00:32:08.38
Marcus
Yeah, yeah, I get that.
00:32:09.36
HARRY
In a room.
