“Show Notes”
Nathan Pidd and Mike Robertson are VIP Creative. Together they run a video and photography business in Hull. Nathan had been doing photography as long as he can remember. He met Mike through a mutual friend and Mike helped on Nathan’s first wedding. In the business they have now, Nathan heads the photography side and Mike heads the video side. After three years of running the business alongside full time jobs, they decided to run the business full time. Nathan explains his training was through a fine art degree that then moved into lens media and really enjoyed using Photoshoot. After university he ended up opening up a print shop at the university and then also started teaching at the university. Sam asked how they managed with running a business after all of the focus on creativity at university.
Mike says the accounts and marketing is something they have always struggled with. So their marketing does takes a back seat. They do outsource some things like accounts. Mike says when they started out they thought they would be able to finish early and work three days a week. But now he finds he works much longer hours than he ever has done before, but he enjoys it. Nathan says he was scared to be a photographer by himself, so having Mike alongside him make that move much easier for him.
Nathan says it’s great as they both have different skills. Sam asks if they have advice for others thinking of setting up a business as partners. Mike says they have creative differences and that can cause problems. You have to also make sure you get on really well as you will be tested on the way. Although you will have differences you have to agree on the core of the business. Mike also says think is this the person I can manage with when the going gets tough. Marcus asks if they have a niche and they say no. They work with a variety of businesses across video and photography. With their time in the industry they have done a wide range of things. Mike thinks this helps to maintain their creativity.
Nathan says they also enjoy the challenge of doing different things from one day to the next. Marcus asks about their setup. Nathan says he is a “lighting nut” and that’s the first thing he focusses in on set. They also use the lighting for their video work as well as the photography. They also work together, so most projects they do together as a team. On site they work together and tend to have specific roles that they automatically get on with. They say their knowledge of sound and lighting means that the videos they produce have very high production values. Sam asks how they persuade people to use them and not their phone to make videos. Mike says the client needs to appreciate what they do, so they see the value. Mike also says they need to do both. Take photos and videos on your phone, but then also have the higher quality professional photos and videos too.
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“Show Transcription”
Sam: Hi Marcus, how are you doing today?
Marcus: I am very, very well Sam, yeah, how are you?
Sam: Excellent, really good, thanks. And it’s very exciting today because we were expecting one guest and we got two, two for the price of one, which was a shock when they arrived in the room, but it’s amazing. So today we have the team with us from VIP Creative. We have Nathan Pidd and Mike Robertson. Hi guys, welcome to the show.
Nathan: Thanks for having us, hi.
Sam: No problem. As usual, we ask guests to introduce themselves. I will let you fight amongst yourselves as to who’s going to do that first.
Mike: Go on Nathan.
Nathan: Okay, I’m up, I’m up. So hi, I’m Nathan from VIP Creative and we run a video and photography business in Wool.
Sam: Excellent, and Mike? That’s about it, that’s about it.
Mike: Yeah, and I’m Mike, I’m, yeah, I’m Mike, Nathan’s, Nathan’s business partner. And yeah, like he says, we, we run a corporate commercial video and photography company.
Sam: Amazing, and then you were telling us you do different sides of the business each. Do you want to explain that a little bit to the listeners?
Nathan: Yeah, so when we very first started, I’d been doing photography for, as far as I can remember, to be honest. Started off on Photoshop, and that was my passion at the time. And that developed me over into the photography side of things, which I’d kind of dabbled in over years. And then I, well, through a mutual friend at the time, I met up with Mike, really needed somebody to come and help me do my very first wedding. That’s the route I was kind of going down at the time. And whether he really liked it or not, I dragged him with me and he, I think he enjoyed it. But we, we established a really good relationship. And so, like I said, I had the photography in VIP Creative and Mike had the video. So I let him have that bit.
Mike: Yeah, so I was, yeah, it’s always really been, well, since, since college, it’s always been video for me, but I studied media production at university and there were photography elements. I’ve only really done a little bit of photography, but like Nathan says, we met on a night out for a mutual friend and then he came to me and said, can you do, you do photography, right? So I said, well, yeah, okay, I can do some. And we just went from there, didn’t we? One job led to another, which led to another, which led to another. Then after three years, we were sort of pulling our hair out, still working full time elsewhere. And we just sort of said, look, we either need to stop doing this or we need to, we need to jump in and try full time. So that’s, that’s what we decided to do.
Sam: Amazing.
Marcus: Yeah, just give me a time scale on that. I mean, how long ago did you start working together roughly?
Mike: So probably about 10 years ago. So it was when we started to work together on projects. We started the business six and a half years ago. So that’s when we went official. That’s when we left our jobs and started the business properly and it became our only, only sort of like.
Marcus: And you mentioned, Mike, sorry, and you mentioned, Mike, that you studied.
Nathan, did you study as well or did you pick up the camera? How did you get into that?
Mike: Okay. So I suppose the way my mum explains it is I was always, I always had a camera in my hand as a, as a child, as I was always going out and, you know, taking shots. But the way I kind of developed is I went into fine arts and I’d always wanted to follow my brother’s footsteps down the fine arts route. But I found I was okay at it, but I was never kind of really out, you know, outstanding at it. And I developed, I enjoyed it. But what happened was when I went to university, I started using Photoshop at the time and I found that I loved Photoshop. Like there’s just everything about how to, I could create things, I could take things from, you know, source and especially photography. So that then came into my kind of finite arts creations there. But then kind of the love for photography took over.
So I started doing more headshots, I started doing more landscapes, you know, all that sort of good stuff and then putting them into, you know, into Photoshop. So I decided to do my studies in what was called lens-based photo media. So the great thing about that was it wasn’t just photography. That’s it. It wasn’t just photography. It allowed me to kind of dabble with, you know, film and whatnot.
Marcus: I mean, just maybe I can just expand on that a bit if you don’t mind, Sam, just because I think it’s quite interesting how your journey both were started in that you didn’t just, with fine art degree or a lens-based media degree, you are looking at all different aspects of visual communication there, aren’t you? Really, it’s not just one particular thing. And those two subjects used to be classic subjects to learn at university, didn’t they? Fine art was like a really great grounding into so many different things. And sadly, it is sad these days that both of those courses are really far and few between.
Mike: Absolutely. Well, so what then happened after that, and I think this is where my development into, I suppose, video and photography came along, is I started off and I finished my, you know, university degree. I did the lens-based photo media. Kind of got out there thinking, right, it’s game on now. Tried my hand at getting into a portrait photographers. Didn’t quite get there. I think, obviously, picture the post or what have you. And then my lecturer actually called me and said, what do you know about prints? So I have no idea, but I’m definitely willing to learn. I’m definitely willing to, you know, push hard at it.
Marcus: So, long story short, I ended up… The artist for me known as Prince, by the way. Prince.
Mike: Absolutely.
Marcus: Sorry, I caught you out. Sorry. I like it.
Mike: yeah, just ended up opening a print workshop in the college, the university that I had studied at. But then I became an AV technician within there as well. And then I started teaching photoshop on a night course, photography on a night course. Then I went on to the BA honours course and started teaching there as well. So it taught me all these skills in, you know, multiple areas, you know. From, you know, studio all the way through to AV, working in, you know, live studios as well, multiple broadcast. So I kind of think that set me up on a good path. So obviously meet this guy and, you know, create VIP creative.
Sam: So you guys obviously have a lot of grounding in that kind of creative side. How did you find it when you had to get down to the nuts and bolts of running a business and you had to do marketing? And I’m smiling here that nobody can see from my coming through. Do marketing, you had to do accounts, you had to do all of that stuff. How did that… How did you find all of that sort of thing?
Mike: Yeah, we hear this a lot from creatives, you know. Are you a creative or are you a business owner? And very rarely are people both. And I think that’s something that we’ve always struggled with, you know, the account side of it and the marketing side. You know, we’ve literally helped hundreds of businesses to market themselves. But I guess it’s like that they say about a builder’s house is never done. And when it comes to our own marketing, you just find it so hard to have the time. And it’s, I think our skills come in telling other people’s stories. And we sometimes feel like we don’t want to show off and brag and be there and be in people’s faces when actually that’s what we do as a job. And we obviously have no problem with it when we’re doing it for people. But I don’t know, just our own marketing, it just takes a backseat, doesn’t it? But I guess the good thing that we have in our industry is that everything that we create becomes, you know, it’s a brochure, isn’t it? It’s easy to fill a website because we just, we’re putting work on it with what we create. We have a creative flair and we all have that, don’t we? That’s why we do what we do.
But yeah, it’s difficult though. You know, the obvious answer is we can’t do accounts. We have an accountant. It’s the same, you know, exactly the same as what we would say to a client, you know, let us do what we can do and you do what you do. And that’s what we’ve had to do. But, you know, it’s something that you never really get used to, I don’t think.
Especially if you’ve worked in-house, which like I have, or you’ve worked in just in normal jobs as well. You pick up a salary every week and you always know what you’re going to get and you know what your pension is going to be and all that. And you lose that when you do what we do because month by month, you never know what’s going to come in.
You could have a fantastic month. You could have really quiet months. We just spoke about quiet summers. You know, people love the summer, but for people like us, it means, you know, skeleton crews in offices and, you know, things like that. People don’t want you in because they’re down to small teams. It means that we’re quiet, doesn’t it?
Sam: Yeah, 100%. But then, I mean, from the sound of it, you’re both here and you’ve got a thriving business. So it’s working to some extent because, you know, you’re not on the street, you’re still here working.
Nathan: Yeah, that’s true.
Nathan: Yeah, we’re not homeless. So that’s, if that’s how you judge success.
Sam: Well, no, just more of the base level and then you go on.
Nathan: Yeah, no, yeah. I mean, we love what we do. You know, when we first started the business, we thought that we would have sort of a freedom to, you know, go where we wanted to go and probably a little bit stupidly think, oh, we can get away with three days a week. We can have it, we can finish early. The truth is we work harder now and longer hours than we’ve ever worked doing any job ever. But I think it’s different. When you enjoy it, it doesn’t feel like work. I have no problem with coming in on a Saturday if I need to finish something or working till nine, 10 o’clock at night if I need to. You never would have done that when I was working for somebody else. It’s, but you have to enjoy what you do.
We always said that was one of the biggest reasons for us taking the plunge was because, you know, where we were, we felt a little bit trapped, not to be negative, but just, you know, we wanted to do something for ourselves and that’s why that was one of the big reasons for the risk, you know? And if it goes wrong, it goes wrong and you go and get another job, don’t you? And some people are scared sometimes to take the leap. I think for me, I was always scared to go by myself.
Sam: Right.
Nathan: So I’d been told year after year, you know, get yourself out there, become a photographer, you know, and do it. It was all a matter of, you know, being alone and, you know, I needed somebody who kind of beside me. So then when I met Mike and realised he was into the same things, you know, we started doing, you know, passion projects and all that sort of thing. We do work well together. Some people might not see that.
Sam: So you found it really helpful for making that jump to working for yourself, having that somebody to jump with you.
Nathan: Absolutely. Yeah. It’s, we’ve got the teamwork. We do work well together and what I might not be able to bring to the business, Mike can bring to the business, kind of vice versa. We’ve both got our skills. We’ve both got our kind of patient areas, you know? Spreadsheets. Spreadsheets is not my forte. But editing photos, editing photos are so I can go down that route.
Sam: Yeah. Do you have advice then for like other people who are thinking, maybe if we go into business together, do you have kind of, you know, what’s good, what’s the pitfalls, some kind of thoughts on that?
Mike: Obviously it depends, doesn’t it, on the type of business. Obviously in our situation, creative, the biggest challenge, I think if you’re going into business with somebody 50-50 is creative differences. You hear it all the time, don’t you? Even in bands and things. It’s the reason they break up most of the time. That’s the hardest part because we, for example, me and Nathan, we both want to do the best we can for clients. We both want to make fantastic images and fantastic video. That’s easy. That’s obvious. So if we didn’t want to do that, we wouldn’t be here. But sometimes it’s about how you get to certain things and how your mind works because everybody’s different. And I guess you just, if you were thinking about partnering up with somebody, you have to make sure that you really do get on because you will be tested at times. You just have to make sure there’s no serious conflicts there. And yeah, I think just being able to get on is the most thing. But having, I would say, obviously we have different opinions on certain things and certain methods, but I think the basics, the foundations are there, aren’t they? We’re both moving. And I think you have to have that. Otherwise, it’s just not going to work because business is not one solid runner and straight up the line to success. It’s up and down. It’s peaks and troughs. And when it’s hard, when it’s easy, it’s easy. Everything’s great. When it’s difficult, you lose out on a few jobs, which you always take personally. People say it’s just business, but you take it personally and it affects you. So when things are hard, that’s when you’re tested. So that’s what you need to sort of think. Is that the person that I can get through that with?
Sam: Yeah.Yeah. Okay. That’s an interesting way of looking at it.
Marcus: May I ask, guys, do you work in a particular field? With any particular clients? How does that pan out for you?
Mike: Yeah, we’ve always tried, as much as people have said from the beginning, have a niche, have a niche. And we get that. It works, of course it does. But we’ve always tried to sort of vary what we do. So we work with schools and colleges, different types of schools as well. You know, pupil referrals all the way up to private schools, work with the NHS. We work with some big companies, big kitchen companies. But we also work with local companies. So we have a real variety. And that’s across video and photography, isn’t it? And the same with offerings. So we do internal comms, induction, stuff like that. But we also do events and promotional, most of that case studies. And I think that comes from, because we’ve had quite, we’ve only worked together for six and a half years, officially as VIP Creative. But what do we know? 20 years we’ve been doing this. 22 for Nathan, he’s slightly older. And for me personally, I’ve worked on all different types of things. I’ve worked on short films. I’ve worked on documentaries. I’ve worked in corporate. I’ve done events, like big events to small events. So we really have done a bit of everything. And we’ve always found that if we just started doing one thing or a couple of things, would you lose your creative spark? Because one thing I’ve always found out having somebody in-house video photography is, and people will probably say that’s not right if that’s what they do, but I’ve worked there myself and I know people that have is, when you’re in somewhere and you’re in the same four walls every day, you’re doing the same thing. Because if you’re in-house, more likely than not, you’re going to be doing the same type of work. You lose the creative edge. And that’s my belief. And we always just thought, yeah, we like to keep it fresh, don’t we? Like to work on different things. And our sort of mantra is actually come to us, tell us what you want. And if we can’t do it, we’ll tell you. But I think that’s probably happened twice in six and a half years because everything’s transferable and we’ve got so much experience on all different types of productions that actually most of the time we can turn our hands to it. And that’s what we like, isn’t it?
Nathan: Yeah, we like working with people, don’t we? We like a challenge as well. And if you’ve got the same thing happening day in, day out, if you’re a portrait photographer or you’re doing product photography or anything along those lines, I mean, the challenge will be there with certain products, but it becomes a bit same day, same day. Whereas what we get is someone will come and say, can you help me sell this? Or can you help me? And I think that’s fantastic. And that’s the bit I love the most when you get that challenge come through the door and we can then fire either video, photography or both, help somebody with what they need, their business. So that’s what gets me out of bed every morning. And obviously the creativity, that’s the side that we love as well.
Marcus: Let’s get down to the nuts and bolts, guys. Tell me how it works on set. Do you use flash? Do you use constant lighting? Do you not bother? Do you use the same cameras? How does it all work come together?
Nathan: Well, you mentioned lighting. So I’m going to jump in there very quick before Mike mentions about me and my lighting. But I’m a little bit of a lighting nut sort of thing. I do love my light. So whenever we’re on set, that’s the first thing I tend to jump into. And Mike’s now, he’s on board with me. I have to get my way. But yes, we use a bit of everything.
So when it comes to photography, natural daylights there, that’s absolutely fantastic. I like to add a little bit of flashing, obviously to create form, create mood. But then we like to pull that over to our video as well. So we’ll get into a room, and nine times out of a 10, you’re in a white room with very minimal within there. So we like to really bring in maybe two, three lights, create that form, create that little bit of drama, and make everybody feel and look the best on camera. Because we know the old sayings of cameras adding on pounds and all those sort of things. And we’ve learned that. We’ve learned how to use lighting to make people feel the best out of themselves. And that’s what we want, because our clients at the end of the day.
Sam: Yeah, so if you two were working together, do you do like shoots together or do you tend to be doing different things?
Nathan: We like to work together, don’t we?
Mike: Yeah, I mean, obviously it depends. But most of the time we’ll go together. We’re a two person team. The only time we ever really need more, because we’re filmmakers. So we can do the lights in the camera work, sound, we can direct. We do all of that because we’re more filmmakers now than, well, video producer versus videographer versus filmmaker.
So yeah, most of the time we’ll work together on that. We usually tend to take two cameras anyway, different lenses and stuff like that, and just offer it. Obviously, sometimes we might have to go and do them on our own and that’s fine. But we just prefer to, don’t we? So if you’re together…
Sam: Just explain to me. Oh, sorry, Samuel. I can just finish that. If you’re together, do you tend to have one of you as the creative director for that project and the other one kind of the assistant, or do you just tend to both go into all of them?
Nathan: Yeah, we tend to take roles, don’t we? So like I say, I usually jump in on the lighting. So while I’m setting up the lighting, Mike will be… For example, if this was an interview, Mike would be… You’d be directing, wouldn’t you? So you’d be talking to whoever’s in front of the camera, relaxing them. You’d be setting up the cameras, getting the best angles for those.
Once I’ve then finished with the lighting, I jump onto sound. So we’ve both got our roles within that area.
Sam: It’s more you kind of know it. You’ve done it so much. You’ve got your roles. You’ve all got your own areas you’re doing and you just kind of get on with it.
Mike: Yeah, we just jump into it now. And it’s the same. If it’s a photography shoot, Nathan will take more of the lead. And I’ll be just dog spotting. But it works well. And we do drone as well, drone video and photography. So that’s another element that we add into it now, isn’t it? Giving ourselves more work. But it’s just like everything, isn’t it? It adds production value. And that’s the same with the lighting. I’ve always been a little bit old school and it’s sort of like, do we need all of this lighting? Do we need to settle? And Nathan loves it. But he is right. It adds production value. So many businesses now are using video for marketing. And that’s great. And with that comes more competition and more video companies are opening up and stuff. So we like to think that actually Nathan’s sort of traditional knowledge of lighting and setups and all that sort of theory, it does sort of separate us a little bit, I think. I think when you see one of our interviews, I think it always just looks nice. High production value. You can tell the difference between that and somebody who we might know who just sets it up and puts the big light on in office. And it can look fine, but it just, yeah. You have to do something to differentiate a little bit sometimes. Otherwise everybody’s work looks the same and nobody wants that.
Nathan: I think that’s the beauty about it as well. Because I mean, it’s now suggested like 91% of businesses use video. And we know this, don’t we? Because I mean, you’re scrolling through anywhere, your Instagrams, any of your social media platforms, any of your websites. There’s nine times out of 10 or 91% of the time you’ve got a video that’s sat there waiting for you to play. So we believe that you should have content that anybody can produce. We’ve all got mobile phones. We’ve all go out and produce this content. But we like to be there just to have that extra on top, that production value like Mike says. So getting the good sound, getting the right lighting, directing it and making or just giving the best to our clients at the end of the day, producing a top quality service.
Sam: Sounds good.
Marcus: You mentioned earlier, Mike actually, I think it was, that you no longer see yourselves as video makers, but as filmmakers. What do you mean by that?
Mike: So obviously you have the difference. So there’s always conversations about this. It’s a videographer versus a video producer. The difference is there between a filmmaker. So when I say filmmaker, I’m talking, that’s basically people that are hands-on with everything. You do your sound. You don’t need a 10-man team anymore to go and do. When I left university, I got a job with a video production company and it was doing corporate videos. And we’d have 20 people on site to do a corporate film. There was the money in it then. But now we go and do the same videos and we do them better because of the way technology is and because you’ve got gimbals and things now. And we do them better and they look better. And there’ll only be two of us doing it all. And I think that things have changed, haven’t they? Because there’s more competition. There’s less budget. You can’t get away now with saying, no, I’m going to have a sound engineer come on board. He’s going to charge 550 for the day. And then we’re going to have a lighting guy. He’s going to be another 700 plus kit. You can’t do that now because clients just won’t do it. So we’ve become these filmmakers in this all-encompassing sort of we do the cameras, the light, the film, we direct. We do the storyboards if we need to. We speak to the clients like Nathan said, get them relaxed because most of the time they haven’t been on camera before. So we’re doing everything. And that’s the thing that some people describe themselves as a videographer. A videographer technically is somebody that is basically a cameraman. Somebody tells them where to point the camera and they’ll shoot it. And there’s no planning going into it. Obviously, video producers, there’s more thought there. How are we going to tell the story? What is the story? How is it going to look? The psychology behind what you’re filming, more thought to it. And both are fine, but they’re very different. And like I said, filmmakers just another one in that category, which is just, we do a bit of everything. We have an understanding of how everything works. And I think you have to do that. I remember when I was at university, one of my lecturers, and it always stuck with me, said to me the problem, because I always wanted to do bits of everything, except for lighting. And that was never the sexy role that you, and it wasn’t everyone went straight to camera, writing, director. But my lecturer said to me, don’t become a jack of all trades by doing too much. And at that time, he was absolutely right. But things have changed now.
And actually now you do need to be a jack of all trades because you have to have an understanding of other things. And even film directors in Hollywood now, you hear it more and more, but someone like Christopher Nolan, they have a grasp of everything that’s happening on set. They don’t just leave it to all the other roles to do their job. They like to be involved in everything, even to the point that they’ll not just sit and watch it, but they’ll be involved. They’ll do an edit and they’ll send it to the editor. And people are a lot more involved now than they used to be. I think that time of having one role and I think that’s gone.
Sam: And then I think I just had one thing as we’re coming towards the end to ask. So obviously, like you were saying, everybody’s got their phone, everyone’s able to do video themselves. So how do you guys manage to persuade somebody that they should use you and they shouldn’t just pick up the phone and do something? Or have they tended to make that decision before they come to you?
Mike: Yeah, I was going to say, I think, again, because we’re creative, we’re not salesmen and we never had sell, which some people say, you need to do this, you need to do that. It’s just not our style. But I think you’re right. I think people have to have, because it’s not just about having an idea and having a budget. They have to have an appreciation for what you do. And it’s the same with any creative, isn’t it? If there’s no appreciation there, then they’re not going to get on board.
Sam: And they are because they don’t see the value that you can take a photo on my phone.
Mike: Exactly. There’s no value in it. And we always say about people understanding the cost and the value and the difference. And yeah, you can take a photo on your phone and phones are getting better. When you scale up a picture that’s been taken on a mobile compared to a picture that we’ve taken, you can’t compare them. You know, you don’t have the control over how you can tweak them in Lightroom and things. So yes, it’s perfectly acceptable. And we always say to people, actually, have both. You need some user generated content, which is on mobiles. But you need that high quality stuff.
And we always think it’s more, the user generated stuff is better for engagement. So you’re going to get more likes. You’re going to get more whatever. Fine. That’s important. That runs a part in marketing. Very important. But when it comes to decision making, we think that actually the stuff with the high production value and stuff that’s been thought out. And that’s where you’re going to get people making decisions to sign up to your services, buy your product, attend an event in the future. That’s where we think that that’s there. But you’re right. They have to have an appreciation for it. They already have to have a want for it. We can chuck stats at them. Like everybody can. The stats are there for a reason and they’ve been researched and that’s great. But they have to be on board. They have to understand that actually this isn’t the cheapest service out there, is it? It’s going to be an investment and it’s going to be worth it. But they have to take that leap, don’t they?
Nathan: I think for me, it’s kind of like, how does it make you feel when you go out and see an image of a certain quality? So just as a kind of a reference, I remember walking past a bank one day. I won’t obviously mention which bank, but one of the images I believe was of Thailand and it was pixelated. It was really bad quality. And I sat looking at this image and I’ve done this multiple times actually now after seeing certain images and thinking to myself, why am I using someone who’s kind of not really taking care of themselves? So maybe it doesn’t feel like you want me to come in anymore. You just maybe, you’re lacking a little bit of maybe passion for your own company or something along those lines. It’s kind of seeing yourself and really giving everybody the best of you, which again is what we try to do with our company. So if you can do it with your company as well, how is that making other people feel? And then inevitably, obviously, that then may bring people through the door. So I think that’s kind of one of the things I feel along those lines. And it’s just, yeah, we’re all about feeling, aren’t we?
Sam: Yeah. Okay. That’s amazing. That’s been a, yeah, we are running out of time now, unfortunately. But yeah, that has been really interesting to talk to you both. It’s been great having two guests on together. We’ve not done that before. So that’s been really cool. Thank you so much for your time and sharing all of your ideas and thoughts with the listeners.
Marcus: Yes, thank you.
Nathan: Thanks for having us. Thank you.
Sam: No problem. And listeners, we ask, if you could give us a rating, that would be amazing. If you’re listening on Spotify, if you’re listening on Apple, wherever you are listening, go and give us those five stars. That would be really, really helpful. It helps people find us and helps more people be able to listen to the podcast. So if you can do that for us, that would be amazing. And listeners, we will see you next week, hear you next week, whatever it is. And Marcus, I’ll see you next week, too.
Marcus: See you next week, Sam. Thanks, guys.
