“Show Notes”
Andrew is a Sydney, Australia based photographer. He started an interview based podcast 12 years ago and now podcasting is what he spends most of his time doing, his wife runs the photography guests. In that time he has spoken to over 600 guests. He finds that the listeners get the most from listening to the average photographer working hard in their business. But he has spoken to some very famous photographers including Ben Chrisman, Gable Clintop, Gable Peterson, Sue Bryce.
Andrew says he used to be part of the AIPP going to conferences and learning a lot. He was also an avid podcast listener and wondered why there weren’t podcasts where you can learn the things you do at these conferences. So he set one up where you could. Sam asks about the photography industry.
Andrew says its very similar the world over. You get out what you put in. You can make a great living and a great life, but you have to put in the time and work to make this happen. Sam asks time and work doing what. Andrew says everything in the business. Accounts, marketing, HR sales. Marcus says that marketing is so much more important than it ever was. Andrew says most people focus too much on getting more leads rather then working more on educating and converting those leads. So Andrew says it is important to ensure that you focus on how you convert leads into customers. Andrew says he was talking to a dog photographer who generated 150 leads at a dog show, but he is struggling to convert them. Unless he gets that proves sorted then then the show will be a waste of time. Andrew says he needs to work on a script, that doesn’t sound scripted to talk through on the phone. To move them from a lead to a customer. Marcus moves onto problems photographers have. Andrew says many photographers count themselves as natural light photographers.
Andrew thinks photographers using natural light only are often under skilled and lead to learn more about lighting. There is a show about lighting which you can find here. Marcus says you have so much more confidence having a full understanding of lighting. Sam asks what photographers should do to learn more about lighting. Andrew says Youtube tutorials are the simplest place to start. But then people also like teaching in person and getting some tuition from a photographer who offers training. The other thing is to simply get some lights and get out there and try them.
Marcus asks about marginal gains that photographers could do in their business. Andrew says optimising your price list to allow your clients to spend more is a good thing to do. He talked to Sarah Louise Jackson a photographer in Melbourne. Her pricing was setup to persuade customers to move up to the next level. Tony Tafe a headshot photographer in the US changed prices for headshot photographers in the US and made it easier for customers to spend more. Sam asks if there is anything he has learnt from guests on his podcasts recently. He says he was talking to a family photographer who at the end of the season has an exhibition showing 1 shot from each photoshoot she has done. And everyone in the exhibition comes, brings their family and friends and she sells lots more photoshoots at the exhibition. He says for commercial photographers LinkedIn is very important and Jeff Brown is an expert on this, you can listen to the show with him here. Andrew says the technique Jeff uses on LinkedIn is to alternate business and personal posts. People interact with the personal post which then helps to boost his business posts. You can find Andrew and his Podcast here.
“Show Transcription”
Sam: Hi Marcus, how are you doing?
Marcus: Hello Sam, I am very well. It’s been a manic couple of weeks over the last—I just worked out this morning that I’ve been in a different place or country every day for the last two weeks.
Sam: There we go, excellent, Marcus, keeping busy with his photography or going on holiday.
Marcus: Sam, yeah, how are you?
Sam: Very good, yes, very good, and excited for this show. So we’ve got with us on this show Andrew Helmick, and I was going to give all sorts of introductions, but the man who is far better to introduce himself is Andrew. So, hi Andrew, welcome to the show.
Andrew: Hi Sam, hi Marcus, great to be here. It’s nice to be on the other side of the questions for a change, so I’m looking forward to this.
Sam: Excellent. So Andrew, could you introduce yourself to those listeners who don’t know who you are?
Andrew: Yeah, certainly. I am an Australian-based photographer, just north of Sydney. I was photographing, or have been photographing for over 25 years, primarily weddings, portraits, and a little bit of commercial work, which came about just by being in the industry for so long. And around 12 years ago, I started a podcast, an interview-based podcast on photography business, called Photo Biz X, and since then, that’s pretty much taken over my life. I tend to spend more time on the podcast and interviewing guests for the podcast, as opposed to actually being behind the camera these days. But we still have the photography business—my wife, Linda, looks after that. We use subcontractors or contracted photographers for those sessions. I get called in occasionally, kicking and screaming these days, but I still do a little bit of shooting, though it’s quite rare.
Sam: Okay, excellent. And so, in 12 years you must have talked to a lot of interesting people—that’s a lot of interviews.
Andrew: Yeah, one a week. I think we’re just about 600 interviews, so yeah.
Marcus: 600? You’ve done 600 podcasts, Andrew? Phenomenal.
Andrew: Just about, just about getting there.
Sam: So in terms of photographers, are there some kind of big-name photographers that you’ve spoken to on the podcast?
Andrew: Yeah, look, there are, but funnily enough, like when I started, I thought, ‘I’ve got to get these big names on.’ But I find, and the listeners respond more to the everyday photographers that are in the trenches working, as opposed to a lot of the bigger-name photographers who are generally making an income by teaching photography or business these days. I find that listeners really like to hear from the photographers that are working in the trenches. But yeah, look, some big names: Ben Chrisman, Gabe McClintock, Jonas Peterson, Sue Bryce—yeah, I mean, it goes on and on.
Sam: Amazing. Yeah, and then.
Marcus: I was just going to ask Andrew, what motivated him to get on this podcast journey? What was the reason behind it?
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, I used to be part of the AIPP, the Australian Institute of Professional Photographers, and I used to go to these conferences and workshops, and I learned so, so much. I used to be an avid podcast listener, and I thought to myself, ‘Why isn’t there a podcast where I can go and learn all the things I learn at these conferences?’ And there really wasn’t one at the time, so I thought, ‘I’m going to start one, and I’ll see how it goes.’ I reached out to a couple of friends who were photographers and asked, ‘Can I interview you for a new podcast?’ They said yes, and people started subscribing and paying for the membership. I thought, ‘Okay, this might work.’ I love asking questions, basically asking the questions I wanted to know the answers to, and it resonated with the listener who was also in business. And yeah, I was off and running.
Sam: Amazing. So, I was thinking you’ve got, clearly listening to a lot of people in Australia, you’ve clearly got kind of your finger on the pulse of the Australian photography market. I don’t know if you know much about the UK, but I’m wondering if there are things we can learn from each other. So what’s going really well in the photography market in Australia, and what kind of challenges are there?
Andrew: Well, I honestly think that would be the same answer worldwide.
Sam: Okay.
Andrew: I think it comes down to the photographer. I think there’s work out there if you want to put the work in. I think there’s no easy way to make a great living from photography. I don’t think I’d be wrong if I said it was easier, you know, 10 or 20 years ago. I think it was easier to stand out in the industry. I think it’s more competitive now, but I still think you can make a great living and a great life through photography. But there’s no denying that you have to put in the time, and you have to put in the work to get the results. So, I don’t know, is that too wishy-washy, or did you want something more specific?
Sam: No, that’s great. And when you’re saying putting the time and the work in, what are you talking about there?
Andrew: Look, I think for a smaller business operator, we have to do so much. I mean, you know, we have to do the marketing, we do the advertising, we do the shooting, we do the sales, we do the admin, we do the HR, if there’s any staff at all. So it’s very difficult to juggle all that. And I think what happens—well, I know what happens—is that most photographers get into the photography business because they love photography. But really, when it comes down to it, I think if you talk to any successful professional photographer, most of them are spending less time shooting than ever, and more time on the actual business, working on the business. And yeah, they don’t get to be as creative and have as much fun behind the camera as they probably originally thought they would when they went into business.
Marcus: I was going to say, it certainly is about marketing these days. I mean, Sam’s an expert in it, and that’s why we sort of put ourselves together in our podcast, because that’s the ground that he covers, and it is. Compared to 20 years ago, it’s much more about marketing these days.
Andrew: I agree, and I think one of the things that I’ve noticed photographers do get caught up in, if we’re talking about marketing, is lead generation. You know, we all want more and more leads. More leads are going to be the answer. That’s going to solve all my problems, but in reality, I find it’s how well you can convert those leads, how well you can educate those leads who are going to become clients, and then how good a service you can offer to convert that into a sale. So I don’t think necessarily more leads is always the answer, but I think it’s the go-to sort of panacea that photographers think is going to solve all their issues.
Sam: Yeah, so it’s all about getting lots of people in the door, knowing who you are, and making an inquiry. But if they’re all going straight out again, and nothing’s really happening, and you never speak to them again, you’re just wasting your time, aren’t you?
Andrew: A hundred percent, exactly. So, I mean, why run a Facebook ad, or put years into SEO to have people come to your website and then not book you? I mean, that’s wasted time, effort, and money.
Sam: Yeah, so it’s about thinking carefully about that whole system. In fact, we just recorded a show, I think it was last week, wasn’t it, Marcus? It won’t quite go out last week, but it’ll go out soon, on marketing funnels, working out where you’re going to start from, and making sure you’ve got every step in place. Because you are, aren’t you? I think lots of people think about, ‘Yeah, I’m going to make a really good newsletter, get lots of people in,’ but not everyone’s really good at thinking, ‘What’s the whole process? Where are people starting? Where are they ending up? And how am I making sure I don’t lose them along the way?’ And it’s hard work, isn’t it? It takes planning.
Andrew: It is. You know, I just received a message from a photographer in the U.S.—he’s actually a dog photographer—and he just generated 150 leads, like hot leads, from dog owners.
Sam: Sorry, I can’t resist this one, Andrew, but leads and dog owners.
Marcus: I’ll fetch that one. Well done.
Sam: Anyway.
Andrew: so he generated, yeah, he generated 150-odd leads at this expo. They are his ideal clients, and now he’s struggling to convert them. He knows he has to get on the phone, but he’s struggling with the phone calls, taking them to the next step, and making actual clients. So unless he gets that process sorted, I mean, that weekend he spent at the expo and the leads he generated will amount to nothing unless he can get some kind of conversion and have those dog owners appear in front of his camera.
Sam: Yeah, and that can be tricky. With the phone, is he struggling with converting them, or is it actually that ‘Oh my god, I’ve got to pick up the phone and speak to somebody,’ because that can be quite hard, can’t it?
Andrew: It’s both. So that’s the first hurdle, and kudos to him, because he actually picked up the phone and started making the calls. He said, ‘Oh my god, no,’ he said, ‘I’m in a hot sweat here. I can’t believe I’m nervous about just talking to someone about their dog who wants to talk to me. I met them at the show on the weekend, and we struck up a conversation. So, that’s the hard part. Then he has to build himself up, or work on creating a script that doesn’t sound scripted, where he can take them through the process and turn them from, you know, a lead into a client. Also, at the same time, because they came in on some kind of promo, he wants to find out whether they really are a qualified lead—in the sense that they might actually spend some money—or if they just want a free session.
Marcus: I’ve listened to a lot of your podcasts, and I think what I really get from them is that you ask very probing questions of your photography guests, which I think is fantastic. You probably go deeper than most podcasts I know. But let’s just turn away, if I may, from marketing and talk about photography itself—the aesthetics of photography. Is there any sort of common problem you’ve found that your guests encounter in photography? Anything in common when it comes to taking photographs?
Andrew: I don’t know so much from the guests, but I know that there are a lot of photographers out there who classify themselves as natural light photographers, certainly in the domestic market, maybe less so in the commercial world. And I think that’s why the commercial world is such a fantastic genre. It might even be easier to separate yourself from the herd in the commercial world because, generally, I find that commercial photographers have more knowledge about lighting, posing, and being able to produce the images they need no matter the conditions. Look, I know there are certainly some talented portrait, wedding, and pet photographers as well, but it’s certainly easier to get in and say, ‘I’m a natural light photographer,’ and just use natural light.
Marcus: Yeah, so you’re seeing that as a problem, or a limitation, maybe?
Andrew: Well, I think they’re under-skilled; yeah, I think that’s an issue. And I think it’s a bit of a cop-out. I mean, really, back in the day—which, as you alluded to, there are three guys here with glasses, so we’re all slightly older—you had to picture the image before you actually pressed the shutter and create the lighting conditions to get the image you wanted. These days, with digital, and I know digital is well and truly entrenched now, we can do amazing things, but I think a lot of newer photographers, natural light photographers, are lacking the skills we had to learn when we started.
Marcus: Amazing, Andrew, and I totally concur with that. It’s something that Sam and I talk about on the show a lot, really, about flash photography and upskilling yourself. Thank you—that’s a good, interesting answer.
Sam: And there are a few past podcasts, right, Marcus? Ones we’ve got on lighting specifically, so we’ll put those in the show notes. There was one photographer, a food photographer—the name should come to me shortly—who shot food with natural light, but she did it with a full understanding of light. Do you remember, Marcus? She only shot at certain times of the day and had hundreds of devices that almost turned the natural light into artificial sources. So although she said ‘natural light,’ she was directing it. She wasn’t just like, ‘Here we are in the sun’; she had all sorts of crazy setups to direct that light, almost like it was a flash.
Marcus: Totally, Sam. Obviously, I’m a big flash shooter—I’ve been shooting with flash for over 30 years, ever since I started. And it’s not that hard; the confidence it gives you to know that, no matter what the lighting conditions are, you can produce the visual message you want. You can make it look moody, or bright—whatever you want. Flash just gives you that extra skill, and especially as a branding photographer, that’s exactly what you need.
Andrew: I agree, I agree. But Marcus, I think you’re underselling your own skills here, because what you do with lights, as a photographer, is amazing. You say it’s easy, but it’s not. You have 20 or 30 years of experience, so it comes easily now.
Marcus: Yeah, so, look, for anyone not using flash, I’d say get on it and start learning.
Sam: Well, that was going to be my question—if people are thinking, “Well, that’s me; I use natural light and need to learn flash,” what’s the best place to start? How do they pick up these skills?
Andrew: Yeah, I actually had the same question in my group, and there were all sorts of answers. The low-hanging fruit is YouTube because there’s so much available there. But I know some people will struggle with that; they want an in-person experience, so maybe go to a workshop and learn from another photographer. There’s a myriad of ways, but the first thing is to get some strobes, start watching YouTube tutorials, and start practicing. Like Marcus said, dive in, do some learning online.
Sam: Then maybe once you’re comfortable, seek out tutoring or a one-to-one session. That way, you can say, “I’ve gotten this far, but now I need help improving,” and take it further.
Marcus: You’re too kind, thank you. Oh, you’re asking a question… so, oh my, you’re going to hate my question because it’s about cycling. Both Andrew and I are massive cycling fans.
Sam: Okay, as for cycling, I enjoy it too, Marcus, but not all our listeners do, so we can keep it to two minutes.
Marcus: It’s a little segue into talking about marginal gains in photography, which is the philosophy the Sky Cycling Team came up with—small improvements that make a big difference. We might call it consistency. Any marginal gains for photographers that could improve their business?
Andrew: Yes, certainly, like optimizing your price list to make it easier for clients to spend more. I interviewed Sarah Louise Jackson, an architectural photographer in Melbourne, who structured her pricing so clients would naturally want the next package up. It was no-brainer pricing.
Sam: So, she was using packages, like a bronze, silver, and gold structure?
Andrew: Exactly—clients might get eight images for a thousand dollars, but all 14 images would cost three thousand. It’s not even a question; they always want the extra. And I said, I said to her, you know, don’t you, don’t you feel guilty, or don’t you feel like you’re being sneaky, or don’t you get called out on this pricing strategy? She said, no, never once in all the years I’ve been doing this, the client just pays it. It’s like, it’s not even a question.
I’m like, wow, okay, I’m here second-guessing, feeling a bit uneasy listening to her describe it, and she’s like, ‘Not a problem.
Sam: Yeah, and then, I mean, I’m always an advocate of packages in all sorts of photography industries, because if you’re going, ‘Oh, well, I can do this, and I could be there for so many hours, and maybe that many shots,’ there are just too many variables. If you say, ‘I’ve got this package, this package, and this package,’ people can really understand it. It’s like buying an iPhone; there are extras to the packages—you know, ‘Here’s this package, and do you want these add-ons?’ Those kinds of options make it much clearer to the client, don’t they? I’ve read some photographers’ websites, and they literally say, ‘I can turn up and do your wedding for four hours, but if you want, I could do it for six, or maybe two, and maybe you want me to cut the cake, or maybe not.’ And you’re just like, ‘Oh, stop, just stop,’ because people don’t want that kind of back-and-forth.
Marcus: But, you got all carried away there, Sam.
Andrew: It’s true. I don’t know, I’d have to go back and check, but I don’t know if it was entirely package-based. What it did, though, was give the client an opportunity to spend more very easily, and it was an absolute no-brainer. I don’t know if you know the name Tony Tafe; he’s a headshot photographer in the US. He changed pricing for a lot of headshot photographers by removing the barriers that packages put in place and allowing clients to spend more freely. If they wanted to buy five images, or six, or ten, they could do so without feeling confined to specific packages. He just made it very easy for clients to spend more if they wanted to.
Sam: Excellent. Okay, that sounds like a great strategy to focus on, and I think what you were saying earlier, and what a lot of guests have said, is that when you go into a photography business, go in with your eyes open. You’re going to be doing more than just taking and editing photographs if you want to succeed.
Andrew: Unless you have someone—a team, a partner, a wife, or a husband—who handles the admin and marketing while you do the shooting, then maybe that could work too. Otherwise, if you’re a sole trader, then yes, you’re going to be in the trenches doing all of it.
Marcus: It’s worth it; photography is such a great thing to do. You know, when you’re out there doing the shoot, and you come home at night, and you’re editing images, and that great image pops up—it makes it all worthwhile.
Andrew: I agree 100 percent. And especially so when, oh, that’s even better.
Marcus: It’s interesting, Sam, that you’re talking about the Apple marketing strategy here, and how they keep it simple. They really have nailed it, haven’t they? They offer three options for almost everything—three colors, three memory sizes—really simple.
Andrew: Yeah, I think we could all learn from that.
Sam: And they make it easy, don’t they? You choose the phone, and then, ‘Oh, here are these options,’ like, ‘Maybe it could do with a bit more memory.’ Just like that photographer, you can make it the same way, where you gradually tempt clients into opting for a little bit more.
Marcus: Yeah, I think when I look at some packages that photographers offer, I, as a photographer, can understand the difference, but I do wonder if the client can really see the difference between the packages and the different values in each one.
Andrew: How do you do your pricing, Marcus? Do you have packages?
Marcus: Basically, I have a day rate. It’s a day rate, yeah, and then on top of that, they’ll be paying for my assistant if I need to bring one in, and any additional editing. Whatever I shoot in the day, they get. You know, I don’t do licensing, and there’s a lot of debate about that. When I was working in advertising, it was a thing we did because I had an agent, but nowadays I don’t, just to keep it simple. But yeah, it’s basically a package.
Andrew: Nice and easy. I interviewed a photographer in the States who was big on relicensing images. For example, he would do an architecture shoot for a builder, and then he’d relicense the photos of the kitchen to a kitchen company. He was very successful with that approach. I don’t know how big a thing that is here in Australia.
Marcus: Well, it’s the same in the UK, Andrew. I really think it’s an American thing that people expect to pay for licensing on top of the fee. American photographers have stood their ground, and they’ve kept together on this. Here in the UK, there’s a lot of debate, and I don’t think many photographers do it.
Sam: Excellent. So, as we come to the end, are there any recent podcasts, Andrew, that have given some interesting insights, like game-changers for photography?
Andrew: Oh wow, you’re putting me on the spot here! I’m always surprised at the different styles of marketing out there. I was going to say there’s always something new, but often it’s a spin-off of something done in the past—whether that’s partnering with other businesses, working with charities, or running a book project. One photographer I interviewed recently has a unique marketing strategy: she creates exhibitions. She invites people, usually families, to be subjects for her exhibition. The mothers usually respond to her ads, and she gets their backstory, gets involved, does a family photo shoot, and sells the photos to the family. Then she picks one photo to include in the exhibition. At the end of the season, she hosts an exhibition of around 30 or 40 different family portraits. The families bring their friends and family to see the exhibition, and many want to participate in next year’s show. It’s been going for four years now! She lives in a very small, rural community, and you’d think, ‘How could you run a successful photography business here?’ But she’s doing it. She’s now known as the creative photographer in the Snowy Mountains region in Australia. It’s incredible.
Sam: That’s a really good idea, isn’t it? Just keeps going round and round and growing.
Andrew: Yes, it does. I should mention for your commercial photographer listeners that I recently spoke to Geoff Brown, a LinkedIn specialist in the UK.
Marcus: He’s been on the show, and he’s releasing another book.
Andrew: To me, LinkedIn is the place to be if you’re a commercial or headshot photographer. What surprised me about Geoff’s approach is that he posts personal updates alongside business posts, so he’ll post something personal.
Sam: Like him on his motorbike, and then a business post.
Andrew: LinkedIn then shows his business post to people who interacted with the personal post. He does this four times a week, and the personal content helps people get to know, like, and trust him, while the business content automatically reaches a wider audience.
Sam: That’s really clever! And the exhibition idea could work commercially too—doing it with businesses and hosting a business event. That would be amazing. Unfortunately, we could talk for hours, but we’ll let Andrew go as it’s late for him, and he has family waiting. Andrew, thank you so much! We’ll put links to your podcast in the show notes. It’s been wonderful having you on the show.
Andrew: Oh, an absolute pleasure, Sam and Mark. Thanks for having me. It’s been great answering some of your questions and,
Marcus: Hopefully, asking a few probing questions back!
Sam: If you like the show, please leave us a review on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you’re listening. Those reviews help other photographers find the show, which is great for them too. So thank you, and thank you, Andrew and Marcus!
Marcus: I’ll see you next week, Sam!
