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“Show Notes”
This week Marcus and Sam discuss the hotly debated topic of “Do you need a photography degree/qualification to be a commercial photographer” and what’s the alternative?
Marcus, no surprise, being an ex senior Lecturer in photography comes down in favour! But for reasons that may not be obvious. Sam asks probing questions and has an alarming stat of the Day.
This show is just perfect if you are trying to decide whether to spend your hard earned cash on going to university.
“Show Transcription”
Sam: Hello, Marcus.
Marcus: Sam, how are you doing?
Sam: Very good. And you?
Marcus: I’m really well and so looking forward to today’s show because we’re going to be talking about a subject that is really close to my heart. So I’m really looking forward to the place to dive into that.
Sam: A degree in photography, which is what today’s show is all about. So today’s show…
Marcus: I like what you’ve done there.
Sam: Photography education. Agree or disagree. And so we’re going to use Marcus’s specialist knowledge here as he has a degree in photography, I believe. Marcus, do you want to take us back to the beginning and your degree?
Marcus: Yeah, I’ve got a degree in photography. It’s an editorial photography. And I’ve just noticed in forums, a lot of people talking about whether you need a degree in photography or to be a commercial photographer. People are saying, oh, it’s better to have a business degree or a marketing degree. And overwhelmingly, people seem to be engaged in photography degrees. Well, look, let’s talk about my experience. I did my degree virtually when I started off being a photographer in the mid 90s. I did it, as I said earlier, as an editorial in editorial photography in Brighton, which is in the UK. And I had a great time. I really benefited from it. Afterwards, I did some advertising, assisting for advertising, and then I started my own career. And then ironically, Sam, I went back and became a senior lecturer at university. So I saw both sides of it. So, yeah, for me, a degree worked out.
Sam: OK. And then for that initial job you got, were they asking specifically for a photography degree?
Marcus: Well, that’s the question, isn’t it? That’s the point of people saying I’ve never been asked for whether I’ve got a degree for any job that I’ve gone for, except, of course, my job as a senior lecturer. That was very important, having a degree to be able to work at university. But the reason why I’m really for having a degree in photography is a little bit, I look at it a bit differently to most people because a degree gives you three years where you can really dig deep into a subject, any subject, but we’re talking about photography, and then really make mistakes and experiment and really find yourself. And I think that gives you, I would argue, more of an individual voice. You can find out your style. You can find out what you’re about. You can dig deep into subjects that might interest you. Now, to do that without a degree, I think you’re not going to do it. You’re going to go out there and you’re going to start working, or maybe, and then end up in a very… a furrow, as it were, where you’re stuck in that, and that might be for the rest of your career. So, in some ways, a degree gives you an opportunity to find your wings.
Sam: That makes sense. So it’s that kind of—you can experiment, you can try different things, and you’ve not got that commercial pressure on you that it’s for the next client. If you spend a lot of time and go down a rabbit hole and in the end it doesn’t work out, that’s fine. And it’s all just part of the experience and part of the learning process.
Marcus: Mate, I think you put the nail on the head. Exactly. Now, the counter-argument to that, of course—and I totally get this—is the money involved in a degree. You’re looking at, in the UK, probably about £30,000, £40,000, maybe £50,000, which at the start of your photography career, that much in debt is really overwhelming. That is the thing that puts me off recommending doing a degree for people, purely the cost. But as far as finding your style goes, I don’t think you can beat it.
Sam: Yeah, and then maybe there’s a couple of other things—other maybe sort of college courses in things where it maybe could be a lower cost because it’s just a year rather than three years, where you still get some of that time to experiment, maybe not quite as much. And then also other mixed degrees, other people providing degrees where they don’t just do the photography side, but they also do the business side, so they do a bit of the marketing, a bit of the finance. So you come out having been able to experiment with photography, but also actually with the knowledge of business at the same time.
Marcus: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point, Sam. Maybe that’s self-initiated. Maybe you go out there and think, okay, I’m going to take this pot of money and I’m going to invest it in some business courses, I’m going to invest it in some photography courses, you know. And yeah, basically have a menu of education or skills that you’re going to tick off as you go through it. I’m really mixing my metaphors there, but you get the idea.
Sam: Yeah.
Marcus: So maybe that’s certainly… I was going to say YouTube, but I don’t really recommend YouTube for teaching deep subjects. It’s great for light learning, as I call it, but the deep subjects…You probably would, but yeah, you might go and find a mentor—a business mentor and a mentor who’s a photographer—and invest that money or that time with them.
Sam: Yeah, that makes sense. So sort of a bit more of a mix-and-match approach maybe so that you come out having experimented with photography, got more experience with photography, but also come out with some knowledge of business. Because if you’ve just got that three-year degree and you’ve got all the art side, the understanding side, but if you don’t actually understand how to market your business and how to manage the costs of your business, then that could be a big issue.
Marcus: Yes, but I’d like to just go back to my original point, Sam, about my experience and my experiences about being a senior lecturer. I taught in a fashion course, which is a very commercial fashion photography, a very commercial course, and we would get about 60 students coming in every year, which was a lot, and you know, it’s a really high demand for photography degrees still. Of those 60 students, I would always probably see about two or three who I thought, wow, they’re really going to make it. They’ve really got a voice, they’ve got a style, they’re really on the path to producing some amazing work. Those are the kind of people that really benefit from a degree—that really small one or two percent—because they don’t need to worry about marketing. Their work is so strong that people are going to be attracted to them. There’s a great book by Dr. Cal Newport, and it’s called Be So Good They Can’t Ignore You, and it’s all about this idea of actually being the best you can, and people will find you. And I think with those particular students I mentioned, yes, they don’t need marketing. People will find them for their unique vision. For the rest, and I’ll count myself when I was a student as being one of the rest, you need to have a business acumen. You need to get out there and you need to network, and all these kinds of things that we’re going to be discussing on the shows that are coming up—how to attract business.
Sam: That makes sense. And then are there different types of photography degrees? You said you do editorial photography. Are there some photography degrees that are more down the pure art photography route, or more down the journalism photography route, or do they tend to be relatively generic?
Marcus: You’ve got a lot of choice out there. Universities are all about attracting students these days, and their student experience is really finding out courses that will suit them. You can do the one I did, fashion—that’s a popular course—commercial photography, lots of art-based courses, a lot of general courses as well. And I’ve had experience with teaching into lots of different courses, and overseeing them as well at different universities. And they’ve all got their thing to offer. A degree that used to be around, which isn’t so popular these days, Sam, you might remember this, is the fine art degree, which was all about basically dipping your toes in and trying lots of different things—painting, sculpture, photography, media, digital, mixed media, all these things. I’ve always thought that, especially moving forward in this climate of change, doing a mixed degree, something like that, is going to give you a very much more rounded view on things—not just specializing in photography, but learning other things as well. That struck me as being a good degree to do. But really, it’s all about just giving you time to experiment and make mistakes with guidance from your tutors. And I think that is really invaluable. I think these days, it’s all about being different, isn’t it? If you want to get work, you’ve got to be different. You’ve got to have your own personal brand, and people have got to see you as being something unique. And what better way to do that than to really dig deep into your photography and find your own voice?
Sam: Yeah, that makes sense. And in some ways, then, I guess it doesn’t matter if you’re doing an art photography degree or a fashion photography degree, because you’re still experimenting with photography. You could do, as you say, a three-year fashion photography degree, but actually then end up doing something quite different. But you have time to develop, develop your technique, build on that. Mentorship is clearly, clearly really key to this degree, and could, as we talked about earlier, maybe be able to approach that mentorship approach—getting a mentor to help you as you develop.
Marcus: Exactly. And somebody who’s going to be honest with you as well. And when I mean honest, I mean critical—in an academic type of way—critical of your work, yes.
Sam: Yeah.
Marcus: I mean, that’s my view.
Sam: There’s no point having somebody who thinks everything you do is great, is there?
Marcus: That’s exactly right. Exactly. Yeah, it’s got to be hard work. It’s got to be something that you’ve got to really start digging deep into your ideas and trying things out and not always succeeding. And that’s the, you know, under this sort of safe environment of the university, of the degree. I mean, it’s an argument I put forward. I think a lot of people still think, oh, no, if only I’d learnt marketing instead. It is a valid point. It is a valid point.
Sam: Yeah. So in summary, I think what we’re saying is that chance to develop is really powerful and really useful—that chance to not have the commercial pressure and develop yourself. But whether that needs to be the full three-year degree or maybe some form of mentorship or maybe a course where you get that chance but it’s a little bit shorter or combined with some business knowledge are all good options.
Marcus: That’s a good summary, Sam. Exactly. You know, look at the options, as you say, see what’s available to you. But, you know, don’t be too blanket to the idea of investing in yourself.
Sam: Definitely. Right. Thank you for that, Marcus. Really good talking to you and look forward to catching up with you next time.
Marcus: And you too.
